I just finished watching the critique of "tradwife" mindset that's someone posted here (can't remember which Spinster, sorry!) and has been circulating on Ovarit too.
I know you'll be like, "wtf?" but I immediately connected it to the phenomenon of Isis brides/ women supporters. I've been reading about Isis for days. It seem some of the women and girls went over knowing about the murders and some terrorism activity, but not necessarily knowing about the sex slaves Isis is fond of. Although I've also heard that a number of these women, including Shemima Begum, were active in enslaving and abusing/torturing some of these women and children or were at least friends with those who did. I think some of these women honestly just didn't realize that it could happen to THEM, too. The vicious treatment and beatings. The rape. Etc... They were okay with the bombings and some of the laws for women, but they probably felt they weren't like those other godless whores and that it wouldn't happen to THEM.
Then there are others who have strange stories about what they expected. One group of young women from Indonesia were trying to get healthcare, which they couldn't afford in their own countries. And in fact, the leader of the trio, a young woman interviewed, said she and her child had gotten the healthcare and operations they'd needed. They soon started trying to find a way out though.They said the men in Isis were obsessed with sex.
Another two teenage girls, Sabina Selimovic and Samra Kesinovic, went to Isis and ended up getting gang-raped and eventually forcibly married. They tried to escape. One of them was beaten to death. The other lived a few more years before being killed in a bombing, I think. Whatever their intentions and justifications, they WERE teenagers. And they certainly didn't expect to be gang-raped by "true believers" since they themselves were Muslim.
There are some women who were apparently tricked into Isis territory by their husbands or male relatives. Once there, they were unable to leave. But there are also many women who have a similar story: they went on "holiday" to Syria to visit family. And then, their male relatives tricked them into entering Isis territory. The suspicion is that many of these women are lying. Some are loyal to Isis, some are no longer loyal but went there deliberately and are trying to get back to better living conditions.
I think for the ones who were tricked, this is an example of what I see so often in women and girls. A kind of limpness where they don't realize they are accountable for their own actions and responsible for themselves. They can't just rely on a man to protect them or have their best interests at heart. And they just don't realize it and then they're in a situation like that and it's like, "oops." This might sound strange but THIS is what reminds me of the tradwives who never realized that all their hopes and dreams for romantic love and the family life they were envisioned to idealize might go sour and they will be powerless to stop that. I think some of this is learned helplessness. I think maybe it gets into the DNA and is passed down not even just verbally or in life experiences but in some type of connection to the experiences of our foremothers. And yet I'm sympathetic because I'm aware of the pick-me within. If I had been raised in different circumstances I might think exactly like women in Isis, whether by choice or force. I could see how I'd rationalize, pick up petty hatreds, focus on hating other women mindlessly, and justify the insane situation of depending on a man that much. I see Christian women in the US doing it right now. I can understand how things are scary sometimes and you just want to believe that a man has the answers and will hold you with his big, strong arms and validate you and all your suffering will be worth it in the end. I know that's not rational but I understand it. And yet this is the result typically.
I think in many cases the classic example can be found of of the "leopards eating peoples' faces party." I think a fair number of these women and even teenagers knew about the beheadings, knew about antagonistic nature of Isis, but didn't know it could happen to THEM. They didn't know they'd be raped or gang-raped. They didn't know the situation before marriage would be living in filthy, cramped dormitories locked from both inside and outside, probably to pressure them into accepting marriage proposals so they could get out of the dormitory. They didn't know their lives would be AS constrained and they simply wouldn't be able to leave their house almost ever even when they were married. They didn't know they might not get the quality of medical care they were expecting. I DO think many of them didn't know about the sex slavery at least, because I've read those materials are shown to MEN and boys when recruiting, but not girls and women.
To be continued...
I know you'll be like, "wtf?" but I immediately connected it to the phenomenon of Isis brides/ women supporters. I've been reading about Isis for days. It seem some of the women and girls went over knowing about the murders and some terrorism activity, but not necessarily knowing about the sex slaves Isis is fond of. Although I've also heard that a number of these women, including Shemima Begum, were active in enslaving and abusing/torturing some of these women and children or were at least friends with those who did. I think some of these women honestly just didn't realize that it could happen to THEM, too. The vicious treatment and beatings. The rape. Etc... They were okay with the bombings and some of the laws for women, but they probably felt they weren't like those other godless whores and that it wouldn't happen to THEM.
Then there are others who have strange stories about what they expected. One group of young women from Indonesia were trying to get healthcare, which they couldn't afford in their own countries. And in fact, the leader of the trio, a young woman interviewed, said she and her child had gotten the healthcare and operations they'd needed. They soon started trying to find a way out though.They said the men in Isis were obsessed with sex.
Another two teenage girls, Sabina Selimovic and Samra Kesinovic, went to Isis and ended up getting gang-raped and eventually forcibly married. They tried to escape. One of them was beaten to death. The other lived a few more years before being killed in a bombing, I think. Whatever their intentions and justifications, they WERE teenagers. And they certainly didn't expect to be gang-raped by "true believers" since they themselves were Muslim.
There are some women who were apparently tricked into Isis territory by their husbands or male relatives. Once there, they were unable to leave. But there are also many women who have a similar story: they went on "holiday" to Syria to visit family. And then, their male relatives tricked them into entering Isis territory. The suspicion is that many of these women are lying. Some are loyal to Isis, some are no longer loyal but went there deliberately and are trying to get back to better living conditions.
I think for the ones who were tricked, this is an example of what I see so often in women and girls. A kind of limpness where they don't realize they are accountable for their own actions and responsible for themselves. They can't just rely on a man to protect them or have their best interests at heart. And they just don't realize it and then they're in a situation like that and it's like, "oops." This might sound strange but THIS is what reminds me of the tradwives who never realized that all their hopes and dreams for romantic love and the family life they were envisioned to idealize might go sour and they will be powerless to stop that. I think some of this is learned helplessness. I think maybe it gets into the DNA and is passed down not even just verbally or in life experiences but in some type of connection to the experiences of our foremothers. And yet I'm sympathetic because I'm aware of the pick-me within. If I had been raised in different circumstances I might think exactly like women in Isis, whether by choice or force. I could see how I'd rationalize, pick up petty hatreds, focus on hating other women mindlessly, and justify the insane situation of depending on a man that much. I see Christian women in the US doing it right now. I can understand how things are scary sometimes and you just want to believe that a man has the answers and will hold you with his big, strong arms and validate you and all your suffering will be worth it in the end. I know that's not rational but I understand it. And yet this is the result typically.
I think in many cases the classic example can be found of of the "leopards eating peoples' faces party." I think a fair number of these women and even teenagers knew about the beheadings, knew about antagonistic nature of Isis, but didn't know it could happen to THEM. They didn't know they'd be raped or gang-raped. They didn't know the situation before marriage would be living in filthy, cramped dormitories locked from both inside and outside, probably to pressure them into accepting marriage proposals so they could get out of the dormitory. They didn't know their lives would be AS constrained and they simply wouldn't be able to leave their house almost ever even when they were married. They didn't know they might not get the quality of medical care they were expecting. I DO think many of them didn't know about the sex slavery at least, because I've read those materials are shown to MEN and boys when recruiting, but not girls and women.
To be continued...
... continuing now:
I see so many Isis women who went by choice being repatriated. And they face few if any consequences in terms of prison sentences. I believe in repatriation but these people should not be allowed to roam free, perhaps for decades. Woman after woman being interviewed says, "I didn't do anything wrong. I was a housewife. I cooked and took care of my family" and it's just bullshit. The fucking cheek of them. And yet, from a legal standpoint, often it IS tricky to charge and convict them properly because of the way the law works. That attitude of, "oh I'm just lil' ole' me, tee-hee." I think many of them are lying anyhow about "just being a housewife," including an increasing amount of talk about how Shamima Begum was definitely not "just a housewife." But even the ones that were... so what? I feel that they were absolutely valuable and instrumental to Isis. I feel that the claim of "I did nothing wrong" is a technicality. I think we must honour our legal system and its benefits and accept certain losses as a consequence of the greater good in its functioning, but I also think either ways should be found to charge and convict these women under existing laws or that new laws should be immediately enacted to prevent such a thing happening.
I read an article, oh, a couple decades ago, about the drug war in the US. These women would drive their boyfriends, dealers, to meetings. These women were in the dark about these businesses except having a vague understanding of their boyfriends' dealings (unless they were totally misled). And then the cops would come in and they'd try to use the girlfriend to testify. And often the girlfriends were loyal. They wouldn't do it. So the cops would convict the GIRLFRIENDS and fuck THEIR lives up. And they'd go to prison. And that would be that. Sometimes prosecutors would just go after girlfriends because they could. No other reason. They'd charge them peripherally. Prosecutors are essentially, unfortunately, largely there to prey on poor populations in the US and Black ones. They stack charges. It's a game to them. They try to get you to take a plea. And if you don't, they'll send you to prison for decades if they can. Even if the prosecutor knows you likely aren't guilty. It's good business for the state and the prosecutors and the private prison/slavecamp owners. I think there should be freedom of association and people shouldn't necessarily be targeted for having friends. But there is also a balance to that. And so many of these poor, loyal women had no idea how to protect themselves or even that they SHOULD. That they had to protect themselves FIRST before the man in their life who had brought this to their doorstep. They really thought being like, "oh well I MYSELF didn't deal drugs," and "but I'm just a little old helpless woman," would make everything okay and keep them safe.
It seems for many female Isis members, this is a tactic that is actually working. And for others, it's not. For others who were tricked and coerced into going, they've already lived through a nightmare they didn't willingly walk into and are now stuck under a cloud of suspicion. There are still Yazidi women being enslaved, including sexually, in the Kurdish camps detaining Isis members. They're trapped, held hostage and hidden in the camps, the guards may be bribed so that the women and children can't get away and they're trapped by the WOMEN and men who believe the Yazidis are their "property," even though the Isis members are THEMSELVES in a prison camp.
Tareena Shakil is an Australian woman who went to Isis territory and then was able to get out. She was jailed for several years and is now free. She says she was "groomed." SHE WAS FUCKING 25 YEARS OLD. I think yes, to a degree there was "grooming involved" in that there was a "bait and switch" between what she was promised and what actually awaited her. Like the other women who joined the Leopards Eating People's Party, she was misled and double-crossed. Some of these women have been horribly abused. But she was a fully grown adult.
Today I saw another video of a 23 year old (posted it earlier) in the US. She's not even Arabic-American, she's just a plain ole' whitey. And she is being "groomed" as well. But I also do think there's something wrong with her. Something seems off like she has some psych issues or issues where she might not have all the faculties of a regular adult her age.
To be continued again...
I see so many Isis women who went by choice being repatriated. And they face few if any consequences in terms of prison sentences. I believe in repatriation but these people should not be allowed to roam free, perhaps for decades. Woman after woman being interviewed says, "I didn't do anything wrong. I was a housewife. I cooked and took care of my family" and it's just bullshit. The fucking cheek of them. And yet, from a legal standpoint, often it IS tricky to charge and convict them properly because of the way the law works. That attitude of, "oh I'm just lil' ole' me, tee-hee." I think many of them are lying anyhow about "just being a housewife," including an increasing amount of talk about how Shamima Begum was definitely not "just a housewife." But even the ones that were... so what? I feel that they were absolutely valuable and instrumental to Isis. I feel that the claim of "I did nothing wrong" is a technicality. I think we must honour our legal system and its benefits and accept certain losses as a consequence of the greater good in its functioning, but I also think either ways should be found to charge and convict these women under existing laws or that new laws should be immediately enacted to prevent such a thing happening.
I read an article, oh, a couple decades ago, about the drug war in the US. These women would drive their boyfriends, dealers, to meetings. These women were in the dark about these businesses except having a vague understanding of their boyfriends' dealings (unless they were totally misled). And then the cops would come in and they'd try to use the girlfriend to testify. And often the girlfriends were loyal. They wouldn't do it. So the cops would convict the GIRLFRIENDS and fuck THEIR lives up. And they'd go to prison. And that would be that. Sometimes prosecutors would just go after girlfriends because they could. No other reason. They'd charge them peripherally. Prosecutors are essentially, unfortunately, largely there to prey on poor populations in the US and Black ones. They stack charges. It's a game to them. They try to get you to take a plea. And if you don't, they'll send you to prison for decades if they can. Even if the prosecutor knows you likely aren't guilty. It's good business for the state and the prosecutors and the private prison/slavecamp owners. I think there should be freedom of association and people shouldn't necessarily be targeted for having friends. But there is also a balance to that. And so many of these poor, loyal women had no idea how to protect themselves or even that they SHOULD. That they had to protect themselves FIRST before the man in their life who had brought this to their doorstep. They really thought being like, "oh well I MYSELF didn't deal drugs," and "but I'm just a little old helpless woman," would make everything okay and keep them safe.
It seems for many female Isis members, this is a tactic that is actually working. And for others, it's not. For others who were tricked and coerced into going, they've already lived through a nightmare they didn't willingly walk into and are now stuck under a cloud of suspicion. There are still Yazidi women being enslaved, including sexually, in the Kurdish camps detaining Isis members. They're trapped, held hostage and hidden in the camps, the guards may be bribed so that the women and children can't get away and they're trapped by the WOMEN and men who believe the Yazidis are their "property," even though the Isis members are THEMSELVES in a prison camp.
Tareena Shakil is an Australian woman who went to Isis territory and then was able to get out. She was jailed for several years and is now free. She says she was "groomed." SHE WAS FUCKING 25 YEARS OLD. I think yes, to a degree there was "grooming involved" in that there was a "bait and switch" between what she was promised and what actually awaited her. Like the other women who joined the Leopards Eating People's Party, she was misled and double-crossed. Some of these women have been horribly abused. But she was a fully grown adult.
Today I saw another video of a 23 year old (posted it earlier) in the US. She's not even Arabic-American, she's just a plain ole' whitey. And she is being "groomed" as well. But I also do think there's something wrong with her. Something seems off like she has some psych issues or issues where she might not have all the faculties of a regular adult her age.
To be continued again...
... still being continued:
Back to Tareena. I'm listening to an interview now. Apparently she didn't REALIZE just how dangerous living in a war zone could be. That's actually what she said. How did she realize it was "dangerous?" There were people with guns walking around. So it wasn't the publicized beheadings. It was that when she got there, there were people with guns walking around. And also she couldn't take a bath like she was used to at home and it was a very different standard of living.
She didn't realize she would be arrested because her family kept sending her messages saying, "if you come home, don't worry you won't be in trouble," and so when she DID come home and got off the plane, she was surprised that, oh, she WAS being arrested. She really thought she wouldn't be. The interviewer was like, "okay and also there's a photo of you holding a machine gun. That's a bad look." and she's like, "yes but they arrested me before they'd seen that." She didn't realize how bad that rebuttal made her look either. As of last year she was undergoing a "deradicalization program" and at first she "didn't think she needed it," but after listening to other women who had almost identical stories, she realized she'd been "groomed" and was "disgusted." So this is all about her life, and nothing about the women and girls and who were enslaved or even the older boys and men who were killed, tortured, had their property stolen, etc...
Shamima Begum was 15 but was apparently was, according to a male journalist in contact with some Yazidi women who've survived Isis, she actually was friends with one of the rape slave trainers. Another woman, I assume, since Shamima wouldn't have been allowed to have male friends. She has also been linked to Al Khansa, the brutal women's "modesty squad" who terrorized fellow Isis women over possible dress "infractions." She may also have been involved in sewing for the suicide vest program. People say she should be treated as a trafficking victim because she was 15 and of course almost immediately married, which she knew she would be. I just think there's a difference between someone "trafficked" as a prostitute or enslaved woman or child, and a 15-year old who chose to go and yes, married much older men, but was fully aware they were killing and bombing people and was on board with that. I don't think it's that same. I think she got her face ate by a leopard.
The whole thing is confusing. It's confusing how so many white westerner women are like, "yes! This is for me!" I saw a video of a white American Isis bride wearing western clothes and a baseball cap who is out of Isis, but wants to go BACK because she thinks she'll have a better standard of living there than the US. She's just sitting there in clothes that would get her gang-raped, tortured and murdered by Isis, along with her two kids. Her sister is in the US trying to get her sister's kids brought to the US so at least they can be cared for by their aunt instead of refugees.
Back to Tareena. I'm listening to an interview now. Apparently she didn't REALIZE just how dangerous living in a war zone could be. That's actually what she said. How did she realize it was "dangerous?" There were people with guns walking around. So it wasn't the publicized beheadings. It was that when she got there, there were people with guns walking around. And also she couldn't take a bath like she was used to at home and it was a very different standard of living.
She didn't realize she would be arrested because her family kept sending her messages saying, "if you come home, don't worry you won't be in trouble," and so when she DID come home and got off the plane, she was surprised that, oh, she WAS being arrested. She really thought she wouldn't be. The interviewer was like, "okay and also there's a photo of you holding a machine gun. That's a bad look." and she's like, "yes but they arrested me before they'd seen that." She didn't realize how bad that rebuttal made her look either. As of last year she was undergoing a "deradicalization program" and at first she "didn't think she needed it," but after listening to other women who had almost identical stories, she realized she'd been "groomed" and was "disgusted." So this is all about her life, and nothing about the women and girls and who were enslaved or even the older boys and men who were killed, tortured, had their property stolen, etc...
Shamima Begum was 15 but was apparently was, according to a male journalist in contact with some Yazidi women who've survived Isis, she actually was friends with one of the rape slave trainers. Another woman, I assume, since Shamima wouldn't have been allowed to have male friends. She has also been linked to Al Khansa, the brutal women's "modesty squad" who terrorized fellow Isis women over possible dress "infractions." She may also have been involved in sewing for the suicide vest program. People say she should be treated as a trafficking victim because she was 15 and of course almost immediately married, which she knew she would be. I just think there's a difference between someone "trafficked" as a prostitute or enslaved woman or child, and a 15-year old who chose to go and yes, married much older men, but was fully aware they were killing and bombing people and was on board with that. I don't think it's that same. I think she got her face ate by a leopard.
The whole thing is confusing. It's confusing how so many white westerner women are like, "yes! This is for me!" I saw a video of a white American Isis bride wearing western clothes and a baseball cap who is out of Isis, but wants to go BACK because she thinks she'll have a better standard of living there than the US. She's just sitting there in clothes that would get her gang-raped, tortured and murdered by Isis, along with her two kids. Her sister is in the US trying to get her sister's kids brought to the US so at least they can be cared for by their aunt instead of refugees.
@Blackgendermoderate If you get a chance, watch the 12th Victim - it's the real life story of a kidnap victim made out to be an accomplice -- in the Hollywood version, she goes free.
But then, a lot of drug sellers GFs should be in jail.
There is a line, and I think it can seem ambiguous to some women in that situation, but some of them cross it willingly.
@Blackgendermoderate I want to read all that but I have to work can't you start your youtube channel so I can listen to it instead of reading it ?????
Seems to me that a lot of westerners are fundamentally disconnected from reality, in part because in spite of the imperfections of western society, it's the freest, safest, most equal society there is and possibly has ever been, and again while imperfect it also has things like relative legal consistency giving a modicum of fairness. As a result, people can get the mistaken impression that this state is normal when it's highly unusual and extremely fragile, and most societies today and throughout history have been brutal, tyrannical, strongly hierarchical, and unfair.
Two other factors contribute to this. First, western society in general has become extremely insular and doesn't know about other cultures except through its own narrow lens, so a lot of people might only know messages tailored for western audiences that sand over the fundamental value differences between cultures. Second, the boomer ethic says that the worst thing you can possibly do is judge someone so there's a reflex against judging things we ought to consider evil in spite of the glaring evil of the thing.
Most people don't know, for example, that muslims were unrepentant slavers, and the only reason the descendants of those slaves aren't around is their practice of castrating slaves. The only reason the slave trade ended was European imperialism imposing that behavior upon the entire world. Modern Muslim scholars saying slavery is wrong are likely engaging in an ex post facto rationalization of something that now is the norm. It is not clear that slavery wouldn't return once western political influence fades.
Another issue is the nature of the family structure of Islamic society. It is a true patriarchy with the eldest father having overwhelming control over the clan including all the sons, and it is also a society that allows cousin marriage, something that Christianity by contrast prohibited. This family structure puts women at the very bottom of the hierarchy since the sons who are dominated by the father need someone to dominate in turn, and the only saving grace for women in the Islamic world is that wives are often already closely related by blood. For western or westernized women who go to isis territory, they'll have the one downside without the other upside.
To be clear, I am not stuck in traffic in any of these regards, I am traffic. A little bit of study here and there doesn't mean I'm not still seeing the world through a western Christian liberal democratic lens, and it's only through the Herculean efforts of some truly gifted individuals that I have the slightest understanding that all I'm seeing are shadows on the wall and that there's a real world outside that's much different.
Two other factors contribute to this. First, western society in general has become extremely insular and doesn't know about other cultures except through its own narrow lens, so a lot of people might only know messages tailored for western audiences that sand over the fundamental value differences between cultures. Second, the boomer ethic says that the worst thing you can possibly do is judge someone so there's a reflex against judging things we ought to consider evil in spite of the glaring evil of the thing.
Most people don't know, for example, that muslims were unrepentant slavers, and the only reason the descendants of those slaves aren't around is their practice of castrating slaves. The only reason the slave trade ended was European imperialism imposing that behavior upon the entire world. Modern Muslim scholars saying slavery is wrong are likely engaging in an ex post facto rationalization of something that now is the norm. It is not clear that slavery wouldn't return once western political influence fades.
Another issue is the nature of the family structure of Islamic society. It is a true patriarchy with the eldest father having overwhelming control over the clan including all the sons, and it is also a society that allows cousin marriage, something that Christianity by contrast prohibited. This family structure puts women at the very bottom of the hierarchy since the sons who are dominated by the father need someone to dominate in turn, and the only saving grace for women in the Islamic world is that wives are often already closely related by blood. For western or westernized women who go to isis territory, they'll have the one downside without the other upside.
To be clear, I am not stuck in traffic in any of these regards, I am traffic. A little bit of study here and there doesn't mean I'm not still seeing the world through a western Christian liberal democratic lens, and it's only through the Herculean efforts of some truly gifted individuals that I have the slightest understanding that all I'm seeing are shadows on the wall and that there's a real world outside that's much different.
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