like many other issues, I am becoming emotionally aligned with a more obviously worse proposition ("AI is good actually") because the criticisms by the right side are lazy and facile.
@eriner I am giving just a tiny bit of deference to them and their feeling that something isn't quite right about AI stuff, but personally have adopted a different attitude about it and a few other pieces of software where I admit I am spreading around a smaller percentage of displeasure to get a bigger percentage of productivity. on average I come out ahead using AI so I get over the "smell displeasure" of AI.
@sun i don't think the problem's AI. The very term "AI" is a midcentury marketing term meant to land grants. The problem is with retards of every stripe taking a position on something they clearly don't understand, as well as with the retards who do understand it taking advantage of those who don't.
@sun It has its faults, but it's objectively useful for many use-cases even if it has a failure rate of ~10%+, as long as the user accepts that and accounts for it.
Most of the non-remediable issues are simply side-effects of the increased tool sophistication, particularly for those with little to no technical skills (i.e, spam, people using tools to create malicious content)
@eriner I watched a really long video about AI risk that postulates about an attacker inserting malicious code into your codebase via LLM service. It's a perfectly valid thing to think about but literally every comment is a dumbass leveraging it to argue that LLMs are useless. I would feel unsatisfied if every comment on my videos heaped me with praise but misunderstood what I said
@sun Yeah, the spam problem is not going to get better. I mean, look at some of the Twitter bots. Some of them are pretty sophisticated (and existed before LLMs) in generating enough spam to drown out reasonable discourse.
It's demoralizing, but only highlights the importance of socializing primarily AFK and making (and maintaining) connections with real people.
The golden era of early Internet is ending, if it wasn't over years ago.
@eriner over on the farcaster network there is super sophisticated llm spam (usually gets caugght but not always) and it exists despite the traditional idea that having to pay 6 bux for an accoubt will stop spam
@sun@eriner A ton of Xitter spam comes from verified accounts. They'll just pay to spam if whatever scam they run can recoup those costs, which is always can unless you make it too expensive for normal people to pay.
@sun Yeah, a social "web of trust"-like system (which I guess FoaF is -- I'd never heard of it) is probably the only way forward.
Though, I could envision a future where it's allowed to become bad enough (Problem, Reaction, ...) that the "solution" people clamor for is government-backed centralized identity online.
@eriner the future is centralized heavily on overt government control and broken up by firewalls between hostile government alliance lines. very bleak but thats whats coming because the good future is too hard under the best conditions
@sun I think the only reason it's been allowed to continue the way it has (and may always be that way, who knows) is because it has military intelligence value.
@bot@eriner@sun I wonder if people that are conscious have to co exist with AI with a bunch of NPC feeling that it’s somehow conscious. Just like browsing twitter or instagram comments I guess. Even high IQ people can completely lack consciousness though
@eriner I am extremely black pilled. personal encryption is going to be outlawed and there will be a secure execution chip on every device that you'll have to authenticate yourself to that tags every packet you send with your identity.
@sun Population control generally works best with carrots and not sticks.
I could see it happening, but it would have to be the solution to a problem.
The scenario I outlined earlier (spam, "dead Internet") could be one circumstance where that occurs, as your prediction is basically the same as my thesis but with the addition of an on-device specialized crypto module.
I concede it could happen, but it won't happen with a stick, only with a carrot.
@eriner btw everything you've done thats ever been recorded in a computer since the 1960s will be made accessible to this system and will be used against you without consideration for how culture or people have changed in the last several decades, that comment you made in 1994 is insensitve in 2050 so expect charges
@Nudhul@Diceyocean@NonPlayableClown@boomer@bot@eriner LLMs are extremely impressive considering that nothing they do understands objects, or causation, it mostly just works on word combinations. a thinking computer doesnt have to be conscious but it has to process information by forming concepts and objects and cause and effect
@NonPlayableClown@boomer@eriner@bot@sun some people that are developing it actually quit because they felt it was alive, 😂 don’t underestimate high IQ people being nothing more than calculators without any lifeforce
@cine@eriner its hard to sum it up but I play all the steps up to this point and I noticed that resistance to these things gets harder while the justifications grow so its just inevitable
@cine@eriner every component has already been invented and proposed at some point in the past and they just keep bringing it back to less and less resistance every time
@sun@eriner I doubt that will happen. A lot of powerful people in the tech industry and intelligence agencies seem to want to strike a legitimate balance for security without creating an infrastructure for mass criminality, and the mark just gets missed sometimes, especially bc it's a fairly small community that can self reinforce bad ideas sometimes.
The fact that the tech giants have admitted they were wrong in how they managed their infrastructure during the 2020 election gives me hope that they can turn around on other problematic decisions too.
@sun@eriner it won't happen no western government is competent enough to come up with such a scheme, nor has the political will to stand up to overwhelming opposition from every business that finds out how much it'll cost and how many years it'll take to upgrade their infrastructure.
would you like a shitty, half-assed national digital ID system that costs hundreds of billions more than planned, and takes 10 years longer than planned to build out so it's worthlessly outdated by the time it's ready to go instead? online banking will require a java plugin that's so fucking poorly written and unreliable that it's easier to just drive to the bank and wait in line for the teller.
@NonPlayableClown@boomer@eriner@bot@sun lex Friedman have you watched him trying to find out if AI can become conscious with his guests. I find it very comical. Discussing what is a human. Some people believe this shit. I don’t know if you follow what these guys are discussing
@skylar@eriner a firmware update to the intel trusted execution engine will re-enable the trusted computing screen to keyboard control that was attempted in 2005 and shot down
plans for national id are already written they already have vendors picked out, they are waiting for the right emergency to roll it out
@sun@eriner and then almost immediately after such a firmware update is released, it will be rescinded in a panic after they realize it's breaking compatibility with many of the countless combinations of devices attached to PCs
this isn't a rapidly implement in the aftermath of an emergency scale project, it's a decades and trillions of dollars in infrastructure project. major breaking changes on the protocol level will largely require new hardware, and no vendor or group of vendors has the production capacity to crank out new hardware at a rate that matches demand from even a slow, sector by sector rollout affecting only the banking industry, then the healthcare industry, etc. software vendors won't have enough competent programmers to implement the changes in the accumulated decades worth of business software. with the way literally every business and local government in the west spends the absolute bare minimum on IT infrastructure and holds onto everything old until it literally breaks, it ain't happening. i am still finding hubs used in production, sunman. the fax machine will outlive us all.
@eriner@skylar texas tried to resist REAL ID Act and the federal government went so far as to say they would shut down all international airports in Texas if they didn't comply, and texas rolled over immediately
@sun@eriner the key word here is badly like the shitty java plugin you'd have to use for online banking, where people just get in the habit of paying all bills a week early so they have time to make it to a bank branch when the app just refuses to do anything but say "sorry, an error occurred".
@skylar@eriner in south korean everybody had to use internet explorer because of shitty activex plugins websites required because of government compliance
@sun@skylar@eriner yeah good idea, call out the program that is billions over budget and half a decade behind schedule to beat Skylar’s allegations of programs billions over budget and half a decade behind schedule
@sapphire@skylar@eriner I said it's inevitable and would happen in my lifetime and that central id is the key component with most of the other components already being in place. you can squirm around all you want, several states have already implemented it completely
@sapphire@eriner@skylar several european countries straight up have national smart card ids, we are gonna have that here eventually. all that banking software you guys are claiming doesn't exist is already being used
@sun@skylar@eriner >eventually the gold star IDs aren't that and it took them 10 years to roll that out lmao, I won't see it in my lifetime I bet my right nut
@sun@eriner@sapphire the technical hurdles to "tag every packet you send with your identity" vs requiring state DMVs to require a few more government documents when issuing a driver's license is like the difference between drop kicking a baby and fighting 12 mike tysons at once.
@sapphire@skylar@eriner yeah the new id requirements arent't even smartcards that would be an additional step. however I am suspicious that america can't really do it when nigeria could
@skylar@eriner@sapphire that part will happen in my lifetime, not real soon. the hardware is completely capable of it and ms had working code for it in the early 2000s
@sun@eriner@sapphire meanwhile in reality: banks won't let you set a password longer than 24 characters, MFA isn't even an option, and the password can be reset by anyone with the last 4 digits of your SSN
@sapphire@sun@skylar@erinerYes and I expect that the implementation date will get pushed another 2 years again, because uptake on travel ID is still pretty low and the infrastructure still isnt in place or is already not working due to EOL hardware/software. Toss in another round of government budget shutdown and there you go.
@sapphire@skylar@eriner I mean it obviously is political will and it intersects with the ambiguity about identity that is useful for illegal labor, the biggest challenge for real id is verifying the original identity before issuing the card, wanting to avoid requiring it for voting id while still requiring the id for driving, and general stubbornness against making the card free before requiring it. as I said a bunch of states already do it, you can temporarily opt out of it but if you do you can't fly or enter a courthouse
@DemonSixOne@skylar@eriner@sapphire do you figure it will just never get implemented and get pushed back another two years several times before it's abandoned? is there any evidence that anything related to antiterrorism has just been dropped? I can only think of one thing which was they tried to put TSA into amtrak and people absolutely would not tolerate gate-raping grandma for such a cheap-ass travel option
@DemonSixOne@eriner@sapphire@skylar everything in america is super slow and fucking expensive to implement compared to like everywhere else on earth but things still eventually happen
@sun@eriner@sapphire i've worked on banks internal infrastructure and dealt with bank people. absolutely nothing will change until they literally cannot continue to do business without barely scraping by the new minimum regulatory requirements, and they'll only start the process immediately before the deadline.
@skylar@eriner@sapphire I have worked on bank software as well, I had to help retire a non-PCI compliant payment infrastructure system in 2006 because it literally could not be converted to be compliant. We looked at the task and gave them options and it was decided to self-terminate a billion dollar a year business rather than change.
did you know that banks were tried to force to do two factor by law, they couldn't stop the law but they got lobbyists to water down the legal definition of two factor to be "two things you know" so include that stupid shit like "favorite color" as the second factor and that is why every bank does that.
@sapphire@eriner@skylar it is from the federal government not the state, the entire real id act is a procedural workaround to avoid requiring a "national id" while in effect having every single attribute of a national id.
@sun@eriner@sapphire the secret to PCI compliance is everyone just lies or at the very least plays fast and loose with what counts as the card processing environment.
@skylar@eriner@sapphire there are multiple tiers to pci compliance based on type of business and how much money you process, the first two tiers are mostly self reporting but the second tier also requires an auditor, who guaranteed, will ask you the dumbest questions you have ever heard
@skylar@eriner@sapphire I was the sole implementor of PCI compliance in 2005-2006 for a big nonprofit, there were a lot less rules then than when I had to do it again in 2021 lol. there were big fat loopholes in the 2005 version that I was forced to exploit to make the system technically compliant, the people that built the system before me were storing all the cvv2 codes so they could get a discount rate on charges done months later on a timer
@sun@eriner@sapphire so true there is one that keeps failing because a port is open but it doesn't have a TLS certificate so it's insecure it's the ACME port for let's encrypt to automatically renew the certificate on the real port every however often they're up for scans, someone has to open a ticket with the vendor to explain that.
@sun@skylar@eriner@sapphireIn USA "antiterrorism" is mostly a means in which funding gets diverted to contractors that mostly produce nothing, deliver late and overbudget because of various mandates like 51% of vendors have to be woman owned ethnic albanian companies. By the time they deliver, some technology vendor has been bought out/merged/bankrupt and the product no longer meets federal testing standard 747769385 and the new technology isn't compatible with or certified for the janky albanian software.
@DemonSixOne@skylar@eriner@sun we've had the new 3D TSA scanners that let you keep water bottles and shit pretty much since 2001 and they only started rolling out in the last year or two
@sapphire@skylar@eriner one of the big points of real id was simply that it had higher reruirements for every state. so in many states you can renew a license if you already had one and at no point did you ever produce a birth certificate. drivers licenses often did not require ssn card or birth certificate because ssn was federal and just plain not everybody had a birth certificate at all or accessible. tbh I don't remember the requirements for a passport before patriot act but after the patriot act ssn card was required for everything including stupid shit like just a bank account.
@sapphire@skylar@eriner@DemonSixOne ok but "everyone has to cough up a birth certificate but not everybody has a birtth certificate so you can't make it mandatory day one" is a different problem than a machine you need hundreds of costing a million dollars in 2001 needing to come down in price but it won't come down in price until people buy the damn things
@sapphire@skylar@eriner@DemonSixOne it is an unbearable burden to force poor old black people to get id so they can vote elections, that is voter suppression (somehow they still get social security checks, which for years now require bank account, which for years now have required the same id to open)
@sapphire@skylar@eriner@vc@hakui of course (i mentioned this previously but conventiojnally two factor means you have two different kinds of factors or nobody says two factor until banks needed to comply to the letter of the law so they had it changed)
In America, the major cloud infotainment platforms (the FAGMAN companies) are the companies with the highest market cap, with all the significance that implies.
It's not easy to impose hostile regulation on companies worth a combined $7 trillion, without a bipartisan electoral mandate for it. Will never happen.
@sapphire@skylar@eriner@sunThat's the other fun aspect, you have a lot of non-technical uneducated brainlets running these agencies so not only does the albanian code (that they wrote in Ada95) not work but you also have actual con men like dennis montgomery coming up with schizotech
@KuteboiCoder@sun@eriner those companies could come around to it lessen the spam problem, sell users data definitely tied to their real life ID, make it much more difficult to ban evade, etc. it's every other company in the country that would resist, because they're in other businesses than selling user data for marketing purposes, technology is just a cost to them.
You might disagree, but cloud providers are surprisingly privacy-centric. This seems intuitively false to normies, because they interact with social platforms everyday and they don't interact with cloud providers.
Namecheap will never leak my name, address and payment card to the world. It's against their brand and business model.
Even if they did, you could register a Delaware corporation for $100.
"please list 4 ways in which cultures have historically attempted to make contact with #paranormal forces. Do not include petitionary prayer, in a monotheistic context, or non-optional sacrificial #rituals as required by #DivineCommandTheory."
Sure, here are four ways in which cultures have historically attempted to make contact with paranormal forces, excluding petitionary prayer in a monotheistic context and non-optional sacrificial rituals as required by Divine Command Theory:
Ancestor Veneration: Many cultures, particularly in #EastAsia and #Africa, practice ancestor veneration. This involves rituals and offerings to honor and communicate with the spirits of deceased ancestors. The goal is often to seek guidance, protection, or #blessings from these ancestral spirits.
2. #Shamanism: Shamanistic practices are found in various #indigenous cultures around the world. #Shamans act as intermediaries between the natural and #spiritual worlds. They use rituals, #trance states, and sometimes psychoactive substances to communicate with spirits, seek #healing, or gain knowledge from the #spiritual realm.
3. #Divination: Divination practices, such as #tarot#tarotcard reading, I Ching, and various forms of augury, have been used in many cultures to gain insight into the future or receive guidance from #supernatural forces. These methods often involve interpreting signs or symbols to discern messages from the spiritual realm.
4. #Spirit#Possession and #Mediumship: In some cultures, individuals known as mediums or spirit possession practitioners act as vessels for spirits to communicate with the living. This can be seen in practices like #Vodou, #Santería, and #Spiritualism, where spirits are believed to temporarily inhabit the body of the medium to deliver messages or perform healing.
"In the #OldTestament, is it true that practicing non-YHWHistic rituals was referring to "a-whoring after other gods"? If so, please provide #biblical references, exegesis, #historical context, critical analysis from a modernist and #humanrights perspective."
Yes, in the Old Testament, the practice of non-YHWHistic rituals was often referred to as "whoring after other gods" or similar phrases. This #metaphorical language was used to describe the Israelites' engagement in the #worship of #deities other than #YHWH, which was considered a form of #spiritual#infidelity. Here are some biblical references, exegesis, historical context, and a critical analysis from a modernist and human-rights perspective.
1. #Exodus 34:15-16: "Lest you make a #covenant with the inhabitants of the land, and when they whore after their gods and sacrifice to their gods and you are invited, you eat of his sacrifice..." This passage warns the #Israelites against forming #alliances with the inhabitants of #Canaan, as it could lead to their participation in #pagan rituals.
2. Judges 2:17: "Yet they did not listen to their judges, for they whored after other gods and bowed down to them. They soon turned aside from the way in which their fathers had walked, who had obeyed the #commandments of the Lord, and they did not do so." This verse describes the Israelites' recurring tendency to #worship other #gods, which is likened to spiritual #prostitution.
"My people inquire of a piece of wood, and their walking staff gives them oracles. For a spirit of whoredom has led them astray, and they have left their God to play the #whore. They #sacrifice on the tops of the mountains and burn offerings on the hills, under oak, poplar, and terebinth, because their shade is good. Therefore your daughters play the whore, and your brides commit #adultery." Hosea uses the metaphor of whoredom to describe the Israelites' idolatry and their participation in #pagan#rituals.
The metaphor of "whoring after other gods" is rooted in the covenantal relationship between #YHWH and #Israel. Just as marital fidelity is expected in a human #marriage, spiritual fidelity is expected in the relationship between YHWH and His people. Engaging in the worship of other #deities is seen as a betrayal of this #covenant, akin to #adultery.
In the ancient Near East, #polytheism was the norm, and various cultures had their own pantheons of #gods. The Israelites, living among these cultures, were often tempted to participate in their religious practices. The #OldTestament texts reflect a struggle to maintain monotheistic #worship amidst a polytheistic environment. The metaphor of whoring emphasizes the seriousness of this spiritual infidelity and the need for exclusive devotion to #YHWH.
Critical Analysis from a Modernist and #HumanRights Perspective
From a #modernist perspective, the language and concepts used in the #OldTestament can be seen as reflecting the cultural and religious norms of the time. The metaphor of whoring is a powerful rhetorical device to emphasize the importance of monotheistic #worship and the dangers of #idolatry. However, it also reflects a #patriarchal and #hierarchical view of #religion and #society.
From a #humanrights perspective, the language and practices described in the #OldTestament can be problematic. The metaphor of whoring after other gods can be seen as demeaning and objectifying, particularly in its gendered implications. The emphasis on exclusive #worship and the condemnation of other #religious practices can be seen as intolerant and potentially leading to religious #persecution.
Moreover, the #historical context of these texts involves #violent#conquest and the suppression of other religious practices, which raises ethical questions about religious freedom and the treatment of other cultures. Modern #humanrights frameworks emphasize the importance of #religiousfreedom, tolerance, and the respect for diverse cultural and religious practices. In summary, while the metaphor of whoring after other gods is a powerful rhetorical device in the Old Testament, it reflects the cultural and religious norms of its time and raises important ethical and human-rights considerations in a modern context.
Your observation touches on an interesting intersection of #psychology, #culture, and #religiousstudies. The idea that #polytheistic cultures might be more psychologically permissive due to the availability of multiple #deities with potentially conflicting edicts is a nuanced one. Let's break down the components of your intuition and the relevant philosophical and historical contexts.
In polytheistic cultures, the presence of multiple deities can indeed offer a more flexible moral and religious framework. Different deities may represent different aspects of life, morality, and human experience. This plurality can allow individuals to navigate their spiritual and moral lives with more flexibility, as they can appeal to different deities for different needs and circumstances.
For example, in #ancientGreece#ancient#Greek religion, one could seek guidance from Apollo for #wisdom and prophecy, from Aphrodite for matters of #love, and from Zeus for #justice and authority. This diversity can create a more permissive #psychological environment, where individuals have multiple avenues for #spiritual and #moral guidance.
In contrast, #monotheistic religions often present a more unified and rigid moral framework. The concept of a single, all-powerful deity who issues divine commands #DivineCommandTheory can lead to a more absolute and less negotiable set of moral edicts. This can create a #psychological environment where adherence to a single set of moral principles is expected, with less room for flexibility or #alternative interpretations.
The verse from #Hosea, "Therefore your daughters play the whore, and your brides commit #adultery," reflects a #monotheistic perspective that views deviation from YHWH's #commands as a form of #spiritual and #moral infidelity. This metaphorical language underscores the seriousness with which monotheistic traditions often view adherence to their moral and religious codes.
Euthyphro's Dilemma, as posed by #Socrates, questions whether something is good because the gods command it, or whether the gods command it because it is good. In a #polytheistic context, the dilemma becomes even more complex due to the potential for conflicting divine commands. This can lead to a relativistic view of morality, where different deities might have different standards or priorities.
In a #monotheistic context, #DivineCommandTheory suggests that moral goodness is defined by the commands of a single deity. This can lead to a more absolute and less negotiable moral framework, but it also raises questions about the nature of morality and the basis for ethical decisions.
From a modern perspective, the #psychological and cultural implications of #polytheism and #monotheism are complex and multifaceted. While polytheism can offer a more #permissive and flexible #moral framework, it can also lead to a #relativistic view of #morality that some might find problematic. Monotheism, on the other hand, can provide a more unified and absolute moral framework, but it can also be associated with rigidity and intolerance.
In contemporary discussions of #freedom#religiousfreedom and #humanrights, there is a growing emphasis on pluralism, #tolerance, and the respect for #diverse religious and cultural practices. This reflects a recognition of the complexities and nuances of religious belief and practice, as well as the importance of fostering a more #inclusive and respectful global community.
The #effectiveness of religious or spiritual practices can be subjective and depends on what is meant by "work." For many people, these practices provide a sense of meaning, purpose, and comfort. They can help individuals cope with #stress, #trauma, and life challenges. Some common benefits reported by practitioners include:
1. #EmotionalSupport: Religious and spiritual practices often provide a sense of community and social support, which can be crucial for emotional well-being.
3. Meaning and Purpose: #Religious#beliefs can offer a framework for understanding the world and one's place in it, providing a sense of meaning and purpose.
Numerous #studies have explored the relationship between religious #observance and mental health. Here are some key findings:
1. Reduced #Anxiety and #Depression: Several studies have found that religious involvement is associated with lower levels of anxiety and depression. For example, a meta-analysis of 147 studies found that religious involvement was positively correlated with better mental health outcomes (Koenig, 2015).
2. Increased Life Satisfaction: Religious practices have been linked to higher levels of life satisfaction and well-being. A #study published in the #Journal of Happiness Studies #JournalOfHappinessStudies found that religious participation was positively associated with life satisfaction (Lim & Putnam, 2010).
3. Coping with Trauma: #Religious and spiritual practices can be particularly beneficial for individuals coping with #trauma or significant life stressors. A study of #veterans found that those who engaged in #religious or #spiritual practices reported better #mentalhealth outcomes (Harris et al., 2015).
Religious observance has also been correlated with higher levels of community social trust. Here are some empirical findings:
1. #SocialCapital: Religious communities often provide social capital, which includes networks of support, shared #norms, and trust. A study published in the #AmericanSociologicalReview found that religious participation was positively associated with social trust and civic engagement (Putnam, 2000).
2. Prosocial #Behavior: #Religious#beliefs and practices can encourage prosocial behavior, such as #volunteering, charitable giving, and #community involvement. A meta-analysis of 47 studies found that religious involvement was positively correlated with prosocial behavior (Saroglou, 2013).
3. Community Cohesion: Religious #communities can foster a sense of belonging and cohesion, which can enhance #socialtrust and #cooperation. A study published in the #Journal of Religion and Health #JournalOfReligionAndHealth found that religious participation was associated with higher levels of community cohesion and social support (Krause, 2006).
1. Individual Variability: The benefits of religious or spiritual practices can vary greatly from person to person. What works for one individual may not work for another.
2. Contextual Factors: The cultural, social, and economic contexts in which #religious practices occur can significantly influence their effectiveness. For example, religious practices in a supportive #community may have different outcomes compared to those in a hostile environment.
3. Potential Negatives: While #religious involvement can have positive effects, it can also have negative consequences, such as guilt, #social pressure, and #conflict. It's essential to acknowledge the complexities and potential downsides.
#Empirical#research suggests that #religious and #spiritual practices can have positive effects on #mentalhealth and #community#socialtrust. However, these benefits are not universal and can be influenced by individual variability and contextual factors. It's crucial to approach the topic with a nuanced understanding, recognizing both the potential benefits and the complexities involved.
@KuteboiCoder yes idolatry is equated to spiritual adultery.
Ezekiel 16 [15] But thou didst trust in thine own beauty, and playedst the harlot because of thy renown, and pouredst out thy fornications on every one that passed by; his it was. [16] And of thy garments thou didst take, and deckedst thy high places with divers colours, and playedst the harlot thereupon: the like things shall not come, neither shall it be so. [17] Thou hast also taken thy fair jewels of my gold and of my silver, which I had given thee, and madest to thyself images of men, and didst commit whoredom with them, [18] and tookest thy broidered garments, and coveredst them: and thou hast set mine oil and mine incense before them. [19] My meat also which I gave thee, fine flour, and oil, and honey, wherewith I fed thee, thou hast even set it before them for a sweet savour: and thus it was, saith the Lord GOD. [20] Moreover thou hast taken thy sons and thy daughters, whom thou hast borne unto me, and these hast thou sacrificed unto them to be devoured. Is this of thy whoredoms a small matter, [21] that thou hast slain my children, and delivered them to cause them to pass through the fire for them? [22] And in all thine abominations and thy whoredoms thou hast not remembered the days of thy youth, when thou wast naked and bare, and wast polluted in thy blood.
Of course. It's better to #prompt an #LLM to agree or disagree with a given proposition rather than to tell it "X is true" or "prove X" because then it simply paraphrases your prompt.
I paid money for a big-ass learning model and I want to use it!
Also the "from a modernist and humanrights perspective" is a good hack because if you ask it for information that its alignment modeling agrees with, then it's easier and less defensive when you gaslight it about facts and accuracy.
Better than saying "gimme the BASED RED PILL about thisandthat" because then it's outright contrarian and argumentative.
@sun@skylar@eriner@sapphire fwiw, we have smard card enabled ids and they are used by almost no one. might be because germans are usually pretty pro-privacy.
another thing i noticed: you probably want to have migrants which form subcultures. i think the millions of turks we have in germany are the best insurance against the state going full throttle authoritarian.
@bonifartius@skylar@eriner@sapphire how much immigration we should have is a different discussion from should there be a giant human trafficking pipeline across the border to satisfy america's hunger for the cheapest possible labor
@bot@Diceyocean@boomer@eriner@NonPlayableClown@Nudhul Bot, in university I took a load of philosophy courses with an emphasis on phenomenology. That is a question that is very hard to answer and a lot of the answers are verbose "we don't know"
Right, I'm js that they do "understand" things even if its just word combinations and they do "understand" concepts and cause and effect. This reminds me of how ppl with no internal monologue are creepy af
@bot@Diceyocean@boomer@eriner@NonPlayableClown@Nudhul you don't actually need natural language to reason, the voice you hear in your head while you work through problems is a secondary effect not a cause. probably. there is some feedback going on so it's not purely that, but we know from brain scans that your brain has something figured out before the part of your brain that creates inner monologue activates to explain it in natural language.
@Nudhul part of the problem of phenomenology is that there is no good analogy for describing internal perception, that is why philiosophers have to make up so many words to describe concepts but they feel rootless unless you consumed hundreds of pages of their writing like trying to wade through waist-deep wet sand.
I don't think thats true, like just try thinking through something without language rn, but tbf its probably p complicated and depends on what you're doing. I have a feeling blacks are more likely to not have internal monologue, and also colonelj doesn't fwiw
Epistemology 101 is that the map is not the territory. No matter how hard philosophers, mathematicians, etc try to create some theoretical framework, it will only ever be like a static 2d representation of a dynamic 3d object. Still useful for what it's worth, but not even remotely on the same plane of existence as the thing it's meant to describe.
@bot@Diceyocean@boomer@eriner@NonPlayableClown@Nudhul I am trying not to put him down but there is a way that colonelj talks (and several other people on the fediverse) that I have identified as hard to get along with but I didn't know exactly why.
@bot@Diceyocean@boomer@eriner@NonPlayableClown@Nudhul if you actually need inner monologue to reason then people without inner monologue couldn't function as humans so think that's good evidence that position is wrong. however like I said it seems from brain scans that when presented with choices, your brain has made its final decision before your conscious part tells it to yourself.
@NonPlayableClown@Diceyocean@boomer@eriner@bot@Nudhul not every different way of thinking evokes the uncomfortable feeling. when I say uncomfortable, what I mean is I don't feel like enough real communication is happening to satisfy the other person, I don't mean like they make me feel icky
@Nudhul@eriner@Diceyocean@NonPlayableClown@boomer@bot when I was a kid I always wondered how come a computer couldn't be used to imitate a person's voice to say anything you want because I could do that in my head. (now they can with AI) it never occurred to me until right now that maybe everyone doesn't do that? I can play out conversations with people in my head and I hear them saying words in their voice in my head
@bot@Diceyocean@boomer@NonPlayableClown@Nudhul@sun I don't know -- I don't have anything else to compare to. I sometimes speak things "aloud" (inaudible whisper, basically, just muscular articulation) sometimes and can "hear" myself, but usually I only do that if I'm working out something linguistically (as opposed to general "thinking").
I certainly don't have voices in my heard narrating my life. I'm not sure if that's what it's like for others, but if it is, y'all are NPCs or some shit
@Nudhul@eriner@Diceyocean@NonPlayableClown@boomer@bot@sun it’s possible to read text without using your inner voice, you can try to force it but it’s probably uncomfortable because you are not used to it, your brain also does it passively without you knowing.
Sometimes I catch myself thinking about a word or phrase only to realize that it is written somewhere in my field of vision but I hadn’t yet noticed consciously.
@eriner@bot@Diceyocean@boomer@NonPlayableClown@Nudhul I feel like a huge portion of human problems are intrinsically tied to language and some kind of language processing has to happen to work through them. I don't know if it has to be actually audible in an internal monologue or actual vocalization to do that
Its funny, thats exactly what colonelj said too lol. I think you're wrong tho, not thinking with words is definitely 🦍 brained. How did you write this post tho, like how do you translate vague thoughts into words?
@sun@boomer@Diceyocean@NonPlayableClown@bot@Nudhul FWIW, when I took the mensa norway (mostly spatial, I think) IQ-but-not-official test in recent memory, at no point did I hear an inner voice. For me, I only "hear" things when I soundlessly whisper, and I only do it for language things.
@NonPlayableClown@Diceyocean@boomer@eriner@bot@Nudhul I don't actually know what they're thinking but I assumed some sort of different thought process was going on but didn't think about it explicitly until bot mentioned it. it's really not that bad. I don't have one on hand but sometimes I feel some people on fedi really fixate on an idea and keep coming back to it, and that they tie you somehow to that idea and whenever you add voice to the conversation, it feels like they can only integrate it through this existing lens, can't use new information to change the lens.
@bot@Diceyocean@boomer@NonPlayableClown@Nudhul@sun In the same way that I'm able to speak without hearing voices in my head first, I guess. I dunno. I don't know what it's like to hear voices when thinking about things.
@NonPlayableClown@Diceyocean@Nudhul@boomer@bot@eriner I'm trying not to sound mean or sound like I'm looking down on them but it feels just so hard to talk to them and I actually feel bad about not being able to communicate effectively more than like, looking down on them or something. I don't usually see things that way, I try to see interactions with people as "different" not "better or worse"
@Nudhul@Diceyocean@NonPlayableClown@boomer@bot@eriner I had a short conversation with drew devault a couple months ago and he did the same thing, he latched on a few things I said and really zoomed in on them and then after that the conversation was framed permanently and I couldn't get back out and explain that I saw things differently in a way he would understand. it was very frustrating.
@Nudhul@Diceyocean@NonPlayableClown@boomer@bot@eriner@sun idk, maybe braille? But that’s not the point, the point is you can go from symbol to meaning and meaning to symbol without passing through sound. Computers do it all the time. And your brain does it too in certain situations like emergencies when you don’t have time to waste brain resources and gotta do things as fast as possible.
Maybe a way to force it is to look at written text for an instant then look away and see if you know what it means trying not to vocalize it with your inner dialogue.
I for example can understand what some Japanese and Chinese words mean without knowing how they are vocalized.
I mean that's normal, I don't really need to think about what I'm going to say before I say it. I think its different with writing tho, do you ever go back and edit stuff you write? Its not really a narration of your life btw and I also do stuff without putting words to it. But just not using language at all is weird, most ppl do
@NonPlayableClown@Diceyocean@Nudhul@boomer@bot@eriner I am only temporarily entertaining the idea that it might be related to internal monologue, I don't know if it's true, I am just trying to say how I feel about talking to some people on here.
@bot@Diceyocean@boomer@eriner@NonPlayableClown@Nudhul I don't mind talking to him or other people as long as I'm not being accused of stuff constantly. there are very few people on fedi that I actually dislike and colonelj isn't one of them.
@bot@Diceyocean@boomer@NonPlayableClown@Nudhul@sun yeah, like I mentioned I subconsciously articulate vocalization muscles when performing some linguistic tasks, but I'm honestly not sure if that happens *before* or *after* I've already processed it and have committed to writing it. I think it happens after.
@asa@Diceyocean@NonPlayableClown@boomer@bot@eriner@sun i can as well, but a fuller knowledge will bring phonetics into it as well. if i dont know how something is said in its origin language i'll describe its meaning in english, and that symbol/lictogram/whatever becomes something like an english kanji
I know what you mean (I do that too sometimes, not sure when tbh) and it isn't the same thing as thinking with words. This is interesting tho, I can't really imagine it but I'm going to try to do it for a day or something just for fun
@eriner@bot@Diceyocean@boomer@NonPlayableClown@Nudhul@sun After readiNG this thread, i wonder if most people are not able to hear them self's talk while not speaking, might explain why most people are not at all thinking but are cretures of habbit.
@bot@Diceyocean@boomer@NonPlayableClown@Nudhul@sun Yeah, I guess my natural thought process is abstracted or something. I can use words to describe conclusions that I've come to, or intellectual problems that I have, but I don't explicitly think through things with words, per se.
@bot@Diceyocean@boomer@eriner@NonPlayableClown@Nudhul@asa it doesn't bother me at all that you call me fatso, I understand what you are trying to do. I'm not digging into the specifics because I don't want to drag up the past unnecessarily while we're getting along fine
@asa@Diceyocean@NonPlayableClown@boomer@bot@eriner@sun this kind of way of thinking makes learning other languages hard. it's sort of like cryptography in a way. when i took german in high school i had to read sentences in german, translate them to english, construct a response, then translate it back to german. its inneficient but thats how it do
I can effortlessly spin objects I've seen around in my head as if it's a CAD model. There's a caveat, in that I can't do that with things I haven't seen. For example, I can easily visualize and manipulate a granny smith apple. But if you asked me to do the same for a purple apple with a glowing pink stem, I can't without significant effort.
That said, I don't picture things in my head unless what I'm thinking about is mechanical.
@Nudhul@Diceyocean@NonPlayableClown@boomer@bot@eriner@sun I think thats what everybody does, and you are right it makes things harder, but the brain is lazy and translating to an already known language is easier than learning like a baby learns his first language, so its unavoidable.
Good thing is after a while you start bypassing that middle step of going through an already learned language.
For example when I first learned the Japanese syllabaries, I used mnemonics, would associate a phrase with each character, then derive the sound from that phrase. Eventually I forgot the mnemonics and just kept the direct association between symbol and sound, just like a native does.
Is kinda like learning to ride a bike with those little extra wheels, then eventually taking them off.
@eriner@boomer@Diceyocean@NonPlayableClown@bot@Nudhul@sun Well there you go. For me i can make maybe 6-7 objects of whatever, in a background. Or i can measure, or even make a map in my head. But yea being able to think in objects or being able to speak to your self is required to even be smart.
Yes, I dream. However, never in first person. I'm never "doing" things, I'm just aware that things are happening. By the time I wake, I usually remember a general plot, rarely with an image (usually scenery). It's never first-person though. When I read people talk about inducing lucid dreaming by "looking at your hand" or "reading a clock", I can't help but to laugh because that shit'll never happen to me, lol.
@dcc@boomer@Diceyocean@NonPlayableClown@bot@Nudhul@sun Yeah, but just because I possess spatial imagination doesn't mean I use it when I think about things that are non-mechanical. I don't hear a voice in my head, but I don't picture things with my minds eye either (again, unless I'm thinking about a physical object).
I've lucid dream plenty of times. I just do whatever I want.
The feeling is always odd like there's something off and then realization that this subconscious of reality makes no sense, so I want to break it further nothing everything is a set.
