@jeffcliff
I used to be extremely pro choice. Given that freedom is one of my core values that's understandable. In the past few years my opinion has changed considerably.
The first red pill for me was realizing that men don't have reproductive rights. If a woman gets pregnant and she wants to kill the baby, then you will not have a child. If a pregnant gets pregnant and she doesn't want to kill the baby, then you will have a child. Your wishes are irrelevant, you will be paying that woman child support for the next 20 years.
So something most men realize is that they need to be very careful. Many men actually do practice abstinence because that's the best way to make sure you don't mess up your life before you get your life started. Of those who don't, many use condoms, and many are very selective about who they have sex with.
Even if you don't have sex with a woman, if hypothetically she schemes to acquire your semen in a way other than having sex with you such as by stealing a used condom from your trash can, you are still responsible for the resulting child she has. In some documented cases in some jurisdictions, even if she doesn't acquire your semen she can just claim the child is yours and if circumstances line up you are still responsible for the resulting child she has. In some jurisdictions you could hypothetically have a virgin male paying child support for 20 years. That's the level of reproductive rights men don't have.
The second red pill for me has been watching my own child grow in the womb. A little head, a little body, little arms and little legs, and it's kicking and moving around... That's not a clump of cells, that's a tiny human, and we're still within the time period where abortions are legal in all 50 states. In Canada, there is no limit on when you can have an abortion. You can abort a baby that is fully capable of living outside the womb, and the doctor would presumably at that point have to actively kill this little human that could have survived on its own but for having its life ended.
To sum up, I think there's an argument for the right to equal protection under the law, and I think there's an argument for balance of fundamental human rights where people don't have the right to kill other people no matter how convenient it would be. These are both secular arguments.
So to address the first red pill, if we give women abortion rights then we should give men abortion rights. That doesn't necessarily mean giving men the right to force a woman to have an abortion procedure, but maybe there should be an abortion veto for men to prevent the woman from having an abortion (being one of the two parents and having equal reproductive rights), and we should have an option for men for "legal abortion" where you give up all rights and responsibilities for the child in the womb and we give women the right for the same "legal abortion" in the event that the man uses his veto, and of course for the 9 months of pregnancy if a man practices a veto and she exercises her legal abortion right he'd have a legal obligation to support the woman financially.
As for the second, I can only think that there's a very very very early point where it really is a clump of cells, maybe it could be somewhat acceptable way back then before it's remotely human-like. Maybe when it looks like a prawn, but once you've got this little thing with arms and legs and especially after it grows a face and has a beating heart and a brain that's starting to function we're starting to have to weigh the rights of one human being over another. If at that point you want to legally abort your child, then you have to give it up for adoption rather than have it killed in the womb (or shortly after being expelled from the womb). If the woman and the man both legally abort the child then presumably it would have to be the state that supports the mother during the pregnancy (obviously there's a moral hazard there that would have to be addressed so we don't end up with a bunch of orphans from mothers who would rather be pregnant than working)
I used to be extremely pro choice. Given that freedom is one of my core values that's understandable. In the past few years my opinion has changed considerably.
The first red pill for me was realizing that men don't have reproductive rights. If a woman gets pregnant and she wants to kill the baby, then you will not have a child. If a pregnant gets pregnant and she doesn't want to kill the baby, then you will have a child. Your wishes are irrelevant, you will be paying that woman child support for the next 20 years.
So something most men realize is that they need to be very careful. Many men actually do practice abstinence because that's the best way to make sure you don't mess up your life before you get your life started. Of those who don't, many use condoms, and many are very selective about who they have sex with.
Even if you don't have sex with a woman, if hypothetically she schemes to acquire your semen in a way other than having sex with you such as by stealing a used condom from your trash can, you are still responsible for the resulting child she has. In some documented cases in some jurisdictions, even if she doesn't acquire your semen she can just claim the child is yours and if circumstances line up you are still responsible for the resulting child she has. In some jurisdictions you could hypothetically have a virgin male paying child support for 20 years. That's the level of reproductive rights men don't have.
The second red pill for me has been watching my own child grow in the womb. A little head, a little body, little arms and little legs, and it's kicking and moving around... That's not a clump of cells, that's a tiny human, and we're still within the time period where abortions are legal in all 50 states. In Canada, there is no limit on when you can have an abortion. You can abort a baby that is fully capable of living outside the womb, and the doctor would presumably at that point have to actively kill this little human that could have survived on its own but for having its life ended.
To sum up, I think there's an argument for the right to equal protection under the law, and I think there's an argument for balance of fundamental human rights where people don't have the right to kill other people no matter how convenient it would be. These are both secular arguments.
So to address the first red pill, if we give women abortion rights then we should give men abortion rights. That doesn't necessarily mean giving men the right to force a woman to have an abortion procedure, but maybe there should be an abortion veto for men to prevent the woman from having an abortion (being one of the two parents and having equal reproductive rights), and we should have an option for men for "legal abortion" where you give up all rights and responsibilities for the child in the womb and we give women the right for the same "legal abortion" in the event that the man uses his veto, and of course for the 9 months of pregnancy if a man practices a veto and she exercises her legal abortion right he'd have a legal obligation to support the woman financially.
As for the second, I can only think that there's a very very very early point where it really is a clump of cells, maybe it could be somewhat acceptable way back then before it's remotely human-like. Maybe when it looks like a prawn, but once you've got this little thing with arms and legs and especially after it grows a face and has a beating heart and a brain that's starting to function we're starting to have to weigh the rights of one human being over another. If at that point you want to legally abort your child, then you have to give it up for adoption rather than have it killed in the womb (or shortly after being expelled from the womb). If the woman and the man both legally abort the child then presumably it would have to be the state that supports the mother during the pregnancy (obviously there's a moral hazard there that would have to be addressed so we don't end up with a bunch of orphans from mothers who would rather be pregnant than working)
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