@yes @mushroom_soup
2000: Gender norms are created by society rather than biological determinism
2020: If you don't follow gender norms you need to be surgically modified because gender norms are created by biological determinism and if you aren't following your gender norms you need your biology changed to match your gender norm behaviour
wut
2000: Gender norms are created by society rather than biological determinism
2020: If you don't follow gender norms you need to be surgically modified because gender norms are created by biological determinism and if you aren't following your gender norms you need your biology changed to match your gender norm behaviour
wut
@OvaryActing @mushroom_soup @yes Made me think, and I think you're reducing some complexity a bit too much with the sound bite. (Mostly working through ideas with this post, hence tl;dr)
Sort of seems like people falling for the sorting trick the human brain uses. It's a simple logical fallacy, "Some [X] are [Y], some [Z] are [Y], therefore all [X] are [Z] and vice versa"... Reminds me of the classic George W. Bush "Everything is either freedom or terror" mindless simplification. "Oh, you have something a little outside gender norms? That's Trans. If it isn't, then it's Transphobic!"
Under the conservative vision, if you aren't matched between your behavior and your biology (or alternatively your generally biologically derived gender identity), they claim you need to correct the mismatch by changing your behavior.
Under the....whatever this is.... vision, if you aren't matched between your behavior and your biology, then you need to correct the mismatch by changing your biology (or at least your biologically derived gender identity).
I guess to an extent you could make the argument that both are saying the same thing and it's a relatively minor difference conceptually in what they say as a consequence, but in practice I'd say it's a pretty major difference, particularly if you start using drugs and surgery to finalize the change.
The problem with both ideologies in my view is saying that you necessarily need to stop the mismatch. If you're a guy who isn't entirely stereotypically male or a lady who isn't entirely stereotypically female or a guy who is extremely stereotypically male or a lady who is extremely stereotypically female or anywhere in between, that by itself isn't enough to justify saying you secretly were or were not one or the other thing by itself. Behavior and identity are related but if they are not the same then that's not necessarily a problem to be solved.
There's also some really strange all or nothing ideas going on with that. Like, if you on the balance have too many stereotypically atypical behaviors for your gender then you need to flip the script and embrace the stereotype of the opposing gender, even if you don't feel like the opposing gender in any way. You can end up with the fallacious "You don't mind doing dishes and mopping the floor, chop your dick off." which it should be self-evident that such a statement is insane.
Then there's the problems with stereotypes not being set in stone. Over time norms change, and if they're this elastic then how do you use them as a tool to determine identity? Even across one or two generations the roles of a husband and wife living a trad life change.
Sort of seems like someone trying to social proof their decisions to validate them. "Oh, it turns out these people (Who are not like me in reality) actually were the same as me all along, so everyone's doing it so I decided right!"
I don't think I've got everything fully pieced together here yet mind you.
Sort of seems like people falling for the sorting trick the human brain uses. It's a simple logical fallacy, "Some [X] are [Y], some [Z] are [Y], therefore all [X] are [Z] and vice versa"... Reminds me of the classic George W. Bush "Everything is either freedom or terror" mindless simplification. "Oh, you have something a little outside gender norms? That's Trans. If it isn't, then it's Transphobic!"
Under the conservative vision, if you aren't matched between your behavior and your biology (or alternatively your generally biologically derived gender identity), they claim you need to correct the mismatch by changing your behavior.
Under the....whatever this is.... vision, if you aren't matched between your behavior and your biology, then you need to correct the mismatch by changing your biology (or at least your biologically derived gender identity).
I guess to an extent you could make the argument that both are saying the same thing and it's a relatively minor difference conceptually in what they say as a consequence, but in practice I'd say it's a pretty major difference, particularly if you start using drugs and surgery to finalize the change.
The problem with both ideologies in my view is saying that you necessarily need to stop the mismatch. If you're a guy who isn't entirely stereotypically male or a lady who isn't entirely stereotypically female or a guy who is extremely stereotypically male or a lady who is extremely stereotypically female or anywhere in between, that by itself isn't enough to justify saying you secretly were or were not one or the other thing by itself. Behavior and identity are related but if they are not the same then that's not necessarily a problem to be solved.
There's also some really strange all or nothing ideas going on with that. Like, if you on the balance have too many stereotypically atypical behaviors for your gender then you need to flip the script and embrace the stereotype of the opposing gender, even if you don't feel like the opposing gender in any way. You can end up with the fallacious "You don't mind doing dishes and mopping the floor, chop your dick off." which it should be self-evident that such a statement is insane.
Then there's the problems with stereotypes not being set in stone. Over time norms change, and if they're this elastic then how do you use them as a tool to determine identity? Even across one or two generations the roles of a husband and wife living a trad life change.
Sort of seems like someone trying to social proof their decisions to validate them. "Oh, it turns out these people (Who are not like me in reality) actually were the same as me all along, so everyone's doing it so I decided right!"
I don't think I've got everything fully pieced together here yet mind you.
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