FBXL Social

How can the #EV industry destroy the #USA auto industry if you make the UVs in the States lol

RT: https://mostr.pub/objects/c9316973bd0fb4db2997e7db41f411cf546fc350c576b013e148a4a33c8205a5

What's the point of building EVs if nobody is buying them because they're super expensive and can't function as vehicles in all the ways ice vehicles are?

If you cut car sales by 90% it won't matter where they're made.

@sj_zero @957dd3687817abb53e01635fb4fc1c029c2cd49202ec82f416ec240601b371d8 That’s a fair point, I guess we haven’t gotten to the point yet where the MSRP of an #EV reflects its true cost

@realcaseyrollins @957dd3687817abb53e01635fb4fc1c029c2cd49202ec82f416ec240601b371d8 @sj_zero
Or any vehicle, for that matter.
But operating costs for an EV are much lower.

Why do most people get rid of their smart phones?

It's the batteries. People end up getting new smart phones because the batteries die out and they can't last anymore.

Batteries for an EV have been quoted as tens of thousands of dollars, and on many EVs they simply aren't manufactured after a point and so your car is scrap. As well, insurance costs for EVs are starting to rise because relatively small accidents can have repair costs so high it'll write off the vehicle.

The saddest thing as batteries die on your phone is maybe you start off with your phone able to last for a few days, and then maybe a couple days, then maybe you last a day, and then eventually you're sitting there running around trying to find a charger to get a few hours in between.

And if you're not charging at home, the cost to get a charge at a charging station is surprisingly high. About 10 years ago I did a study of the difference in price between the cheapest EV and a cheap new gas vehicle (I think it was a Toyota Corolla), and found you'd really struggle to make up the difference in price in gasoline usage and oil changes.

According to my research at the time, and inexpensive Corolla was just under half the price of a battery electric vehicle. I just took a quick look, and the same Toyota Corolla is aboot 29,000 canuckistani kopecs, and the cheapest BEV I could find was the Volkswagen golf at 39,000. There's completely other dimension to this being the new versus used but I'm not going to get into that right now. The key thing is that if your gas budget is about 40 canuckistani kopecs per week, then that's 2000 kopecs per year, so if you assume you basically get travel for free then it's 5 years to break even (give or take a 3 oil changes per year). That's now, with der fuhrer's carbon taxes in full effect. I have to assume that he will be spending that money on something extremely good for the environment, such as paying off charities that employ his family members. On the other hand, if charging costs a bunch of money because it turns out those chargers aren't so cheap (it might be just fine, but I've seen multiple videos where people charge up and the cost is in like the several tens of dollars which was not what I expected)

And for all of the times you can't use your EV, for example trying to drive to the next city in the winter, suddenly you need to count the costs of using something else.

So I think it's more accurate to say that the known costs of driving a car with an internal combustion engine may be higher than the as of yet not really known costs of driving an EV. On the other hand, maybe not. We don't really know yet except for a small number of people who self selected because their lifestyle worked for EVs, but it'll still be a while before things are known.

There's also a whole other part that no one talks about because most of the people who drive EVs don't live in really cold places: if it's 40 below, your starter battery on your car is in bad shape. You can keep it on a charger and keep the block heater turned on though, and the car will start and once it does that, it'll get comparable performance to in warmer weather for a variety of reasons where some things are more efficient and other things are less efficient. You basically get cabin heat for free. Especially when you're driving, it can be really really cold out and you can have a nice warm toasty vehicle cabin, and that doesn't affect the range of your vehicle at all, since instead of redistributing waste heat to the outside using the radiator, you redistribute waste heat to the inside of the car using the heater core. By contrast, if you turn on the heat in an electric car, an electric car is going to see a commensurate and rather large drop in range because to heat an EV you use the battery to create heat. Meanwhile, the engine bay of an ICE car warms up from waste heat, and the EV needs to keep its battery warm using energy that can't be used to move the vehicle.

You will often find videos of electric vehicles being tested in Arctic conditions, but one thing that you need to note for those videos is that they drive out of a heated garage into the cold. Therefore, in order to have your energy efficient ev, presumably you need to keep at spare room in your house heated to keep the car in overnight. That might seem like a wild conjecture, but I've worked somewhere with electric vehicles and 40 below, and those electric vehicles had to stay in the heated garages when it got really cool or else they would not move.

Anyway, I know that this all seems like I'm completely cutting down EVs and saying that you can't possibly want to buy one ever, but the reality is more like "these are not a magic wand that one can wave" -- there are going to be situations where they make a lot more sense, and other situations where they make a lot less sense, and unfortunately I think for a lot of people at least for the time being they might be in the latter camp. On the other hand, as with literally everything, you need to do your own research and come to your own decisions because what might not be a good idea for one person could be a great idea for that person's neighbor. Decisions are mostly personal, after all.

I agree. That said, one of the things people don't realise about EV batteries is that it's often not the whole battery that dies, but only one or two cells in a block. If you are okay using a soldering iron, you can arguably salvage most of these battery cells by just testing and replacing only the cells that are dead. But it'll void the warrantee, and yadda yadda. Also the tech is constantly improving, so costs are bound to come down eventually.

Ultimately though, the "green'ness" of EV's is moot. It's mostly green-wash. Electricity as a form of energy in it's own right is not very useful for anything. Instead it's generally just a medium of transmission back and forth between heat and kenetic energy, which are what we really use. In that respect combustion is more efficient, because it provides both of the intended end products without a middle man.

Personally I've been getting more interested in wood-gas (or other biogas) as a form of energy, since it is mostly methane and carbon monoxide, which becomes CO2 and water when combusted, and the material byproducts are charcoal, and creosote which are also useful for a range of applications. You don't get much greener or more renewable than plants, and it doesn't require child-labour in the Congo or such like to obtain it. Even weed trees and invasive species that are fast growing and have no appreciable use in construction, are still viable sources for wood-gas. Also quite easy to DIY the production and storage (notwithstanding the dangers of carbon monoxide capture/storage).

https://youtu.be/5cbm9Cz6OdQ

@realcaseyrollins
AvE type talk aside...

Battery tech has advanced in ten years. With the battery guarantees to 8 years
A 30 mpg car refueling at $4/gal spends $0.13/mile. A 2 mi/kwh car charging at $0.14/kwh spends $0.07 cents/mile.

My wife's F150 EV sits outside, and functions in -40 F/C weather.

The problem is the change in the driving behaviour required. Drivers must slow down and plan ahead for weather. Humanity enjoys the status quo, which holds us back (Asimov).

I've written at long length about hydroelectric, and it's difficult to argue that it isn't the best possible form of energy anywhere it's practical. There's a direct inverse correlation in most places between the amount of hydroelectric and the price of electricity. Unlike most forms of green energy, it is highly effective in places where it gets cold, such as Norway, Northern Quebec, and Northern Manitoba. You don't need particularly exotic materials to build such dams, you can use regionally sourced iron and copper if need be, as well as local earthenworks and limestone for portland cement.

Now that doesn't help much with transportation, but there's another long proven technology we could bring back which would be beneficial: The electric streetcar. There were cities with extensive public transportation operating using such streetcars at the turn of the 20th century, showing it was already practical 100 years ago. These were also successfully used in cities that are cold. One thing that would have to change for public transportation to be more useful is we'd need to accept that there is such a thing as good behavior and bad behavior and if you're not going to behave in a way conducive to polite society you shall be removed from public transportation. As long as it's ok to be bad in public with no repercussions, then people will want personal vehicles.
replies
1
announces
0
likes
0

Streetcars are great. My experience is with those in the Greater Toronto Area (Ontario, Canada), TTC (Toronto Transit Commission). As with anything our government does, they take a very good idea, and turn it into absolute dogshit. Same with the subways, which are actually awesome, in spite of the nightmarish bureaucracy involved. So for instance we've been contracting with Bombardier to deliver those streetcars and subway cars, which are years overdue and way over budget, and sometimes dead on arrival. Then there's the billing systems contracted by Metrolinx which require a Presto card to access, which makes it mandatory to provide a ridiculous amount of personally identifying information. If you don't give that information, and allow all your travels to be tracked and logged in perpetuity, then no ̶t̶a̶x̶ extortion rebate. It used to be you could buy a bunch of tokens and jump on any transit any time anywhere. Now you can't without them ramming a surveillance cam into your colon. Plus they basically never work, which you will have to prove to the gestapo if they show up and demand your papers (ie. proof of payment). This is the status quo, and I guarantee that in spite of the ridiculous problems with the system, any ``solution`` they come up with will ultimately be far worse. In theory, these are good ideas. In practice, the government will find a way to make it less helpful than a steaming pile of shit. Incidentally, same with hydro power, which gets sold to the USA and them purchased back at a premium.

Anyway, this is why I'm personally exploring the potential of making wood-gas. Trees 3D-print their physical structure out of CO2 from the atmosphere. Then it get's pyrolized to produce the wood-gas, with the byproduct being charcoal, making the process carbon negative. You can run any gasoline engine directly off [filtered] wood-gas without modifications, and can manufacture it using inexpensive off the shelf parts.

https://youtu.be/522BaxM0Jnk