@realcaseyrollins thats a tiny percentage and TBH healthcare should be free
@Rasp Free healthcare doesn't usually scale well and doesn't work for large, first-world nations. And doctors should be paid for their expertise, so I don't think that healthcare should be free. However, healthcare should be affordable for everyone.
@realcaseyrollins that is hilarious because most of the developed world does it without an issue.
@Rasp As in most countries? Because most countries are generally pretty small.
I'm talking about countries the size of the #USA, #Canada, #Russia, #China, etc.
It works really well on a small scale, which is why you see it in smaller countries like those in #Europe. A reasonable case could probably be made to try universal healthcare at a state level since the scale is probably pretty similar for most American states.
@realcaseyrollins thats not a problem with size its a problem with corruption.
Look at the NHS it didn't get massively worse because the UK got bigger it got worse because the government got way more corrupt.
Incidentally, /despite/ all the corruption and incompetence, they still both have national healthcare.
@lispi314 @icedquinn @Rasp So your point is that if only we had free healthcare, we'd have a quality of care on par with... #Canada? #Russia? Are you saying that the healthcare is better in these countries? 🤔
And no matter how bad it can get, I probably don't need to remind you, it is always better than /literally nothing/ because one cannot afford it.
@lispi314 @icedquinn @realcaseyrollins allowing people to die from afflictions we can cure but don't because they cant "Afford" care is just fucking atrocious, it is one of the most heinous detestable thing I cant even imagine.
Like its disgusting and the people who support it are disgusting.
The people who support private healthcare are... without any minced words Pure Fucking Evil. There is no fucking redeeming these fuckers. They are fucked in the head beyond sanity.
The level of callousness borders on psychopathy. These people lack any sense of empathy and I think we should refuse them any empathy. Fuck these people.
This is saying "I value corporate profits over peoples lives" in the most direct way possible. "Poor sick people SHOULD die for being poor and sick."
They can dress it up however they want but it is a MONSTROUS position to take.
There is no fucking nuance on that point either.
Vile Fucking Monsters. Endof.
No debate with them is worth having.
> The people who support private healthcare are... without any minced words Pure Fucking Evil.
Well, okay then. 😂 I suspect that my chance of having a good faith conversation with you about this is quite limited if that is your genuine position.
The unavoidable problem is that healthcare requires people to work, input from workers, and so anyone stating that healthcare should be free runs into the issue of requiring people to work without compensation.
It runs into the issue of you’re going to fix me for free. You’re going to work for me for free.
You see how problematic that is?
But that’s just the theory. In theory they raise taxes sufficiently to pay people enough that they will jump up and fix patients, but in reality there are things like not enough doctors to fix the people, not enough doctors willing to accept that trade, etc.
There is no universal healthcare. Even if governments force doctors to operate at gunpoint, which to be clear I’m highlighting as the problematic thing, there will be a limited supply of doctors. It cannot be universal.
It’s always going to be a negotiation, and the issue is how constraining that negotiation is on doctors, how much pressure we put on them to work for others when they don’t want to.
In theory everything is wonderful and everybody gets fixed. Reality is much more harsh because it requires people to work to fix people.
@realcaseyrollins @volkris I already factored that in and its fine. I am more than happy to pay a little more so that everyone can get the treatment they need when they need it.
Okay, that's harsh.
What if they haven't thought through the consequences of that position? Or what if, like icedquinn in this thread, they believe that private healthcare can be affordable.
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@Hyolobrika I don’t think it’s good that we talk about this in such politically misleading terminology.
When you tell people they have a right to healthcare, fine that’s not a perfect statement, but more importantly, when they don’t get the health care that they think they were promised, that’s not just good, that’s bad.
I think it’s really important for politics to be honest because that’s the only way for society to have honest discussions about the trade-offs and balances that they are looking to make.
It’s not perfect being the enemy of the good. This is flat out bad.
@volkris @Hyolobrika @Rasp Hyo had a good point there. Although to be fair, that same critique could be levied at people who hate private healthcare as well.
I disagree because I consider critiques of private healthcare to be more honest.
People who promote universal healthcare sell this fiction of just putting money in and getting healthcare out, ignoring that there are real people involved in making that happen, and they do want to get paid for their efforts. They aren’t simple cogs in the machine that turns money into healthcare.
People who are critical of private healthcare, at least they are living a little bit more in reality, talking about how real world people interact with real world money.
@Hyolobrika @Rasp @realcaseyrollins @icedquinn Maintaining a profit incentive at the core of it is just asking for it to eventually get corrupted.
It may be metastable for a while, but inviting such rot at the core of it is not a good idea.
Of course in this case there was the direct intervention of statists with a virulent hate for mutual aid or indeed anything that doesn't promote and incorporate such rot, so arguably they were fucked regardless so long as the state wasn't dismantled.