@fsf
1) the GNU Kind Communication Guidelines are fine. They do not need to be turned into some kind of orwellian thought police guideline. While it's always possible to improve such guidelines, the time to do so is unconnected from moral panics specifically targetting stallman.
2) Gerald Sussman should not resign
3) Resist the urge to cancel @rms and don't let those involved in a witch hunt against him push you around.
- associate member
1) the GNU Kind Communication Guidelines are fine. They do not need to be turned into some kind of orwellian thought police guideline. While it's always possible to improve such guidelines, the time to do so is unconnected from moral panics specifically targetting stallman.
2) Gerald Sussman should not resign
3) Resist the urge to cancel @rms and don't let those involved in a witch hunt against him push you around.
- associate member
@jeffcliff @fsf @rms
> 2) Gerald Sussman should not resign
I don't know who's pushing this but anything they can do to keep him, they should do.
I watched that talk by Sussman where he answers some about analysis vs. synthesis and the changes in hardware and software, and it was very insightful and I called the lady over. I started with explaining "This is Gerald Sussman" and talked about SICP and Scheme and the old Lisp machines and MIT and she was duly impressed but kind of bored with the long list of credentials and then after I'd explained who he was and why his opinion was relevant, I started the video and she immediately exclaimed "Oh, that's Jerry!" She didn't know his last name, but he had been teaching 6.001 when she was there, and allegedly he's the nicest professor she had. She had some things to say about some real assholes around MIT, mostly careerists that were disappointed that they couldn't be professors without occasionally interacting with students, some malevolent people, but she loved Jerry, all the students loved Jerry. A guy that gets where Sussman is but is still really nice to undergrads is a guy you really want: anyone that wants to push Sussman out is trying to kill the project.
> 3) Resist the urge to cancel @rms and don't let those involved in a witch hunt against him push you around.
The person you are addressing is probably from the clique that is driving the witch hunt. They don't have hackers running the "social media" accounts: that is always taken over by the people that want control over the communication.
> 2) Gerald Sussman should not resign
I don't know who's pushing this but anything they can do to keep him, they should do.
I watched that talk by Sussman where he answers some about analysis vs. synthesis and the changes in hardware and software, and it was very insightful and I called the lady over. I started with explaining "This is Gerald Sussman" and talked about SICP and Scheme and the old Lisp machines and MIT and she was duly impressed but kind of bored with the long list of credentials and then after I'd explained who he was and why his opinion was relevant, I started the video and she immediately exclaimed "Oh, that's Jerry!" She didn't know his last name, but he had been teaching 6.001 when she was there, and allegedly he's the nicest professor she had. She had some things to say about some real assholes around MIT, mostly careerists that were disappointed that they couldn't be professors without occasionally interacting with students, some malevolent people, but she loved Jerry, all the students loved Jerry. A guy that gets where Sussman is but is still really nice to undergrads is a guy you really want: anyone that wants to push Sussman out is trying to kill the project.
> 3) Resist the urge to cancel @rms and don't let those involved in a witch hunt against him push you around.
The person you are addressing is probably from the clique that is driving the witch hunt. They don't have hackers running the "social media" accounts: that is always taken over by the people that want control over the communication.
@jeffcliff @fsf @rms
> I am not prejudging whoever runs @fsf
Yeah, maybe I shouldn't have; I just assume they've blocked the bugout zone and I can say whatever I feel like. I'd consider it post-judging (because of the below) but maybe I am wrong.
> I have yet to see any evidence that the person or people who run that particular account are part of the attempted '19 fsf coup.
Given the changes to the site, including revising historical documents (without even noting the revision or altering the byline), as well as the changes to MIT's CS department (nearly all Windows after Microsoft flooded the place with cash) I am of the belief that the coup was successful and that Microsoft finally won, the FSF is dead, MIT is dead, etc. If they are now trying to push out Sussman, they've commenced the executions of the old guard so that there will be no one to stop the purges.
> I am not prejudging whoever runs @fsf
Yeah, maybe I shouldn't have; I just assume they've blocked the bugout zone and I can say whatever I feel like. I'd consider it post-judging (because of the below) but maybe I am wrong.
> I have yet to see any evidence that the person or people who run that particular account are part of the attempted '19 fsf coup.
Given the changes to the site, including revising historical documents (without even noting the revision or altering the byline), as well as the changes to MIT's CS department (nearly all Windows after Microsoft flooded the place with cash) I am of the belief that the coup was successful and that Microsoft finally won, the FSF is dead, MIT is dead, etc. If they are now trying to push out Sussman, they've commenced the executions of the old guard so that there will be no one to stop the purges.
@jeffcliff @fsf @rms
The header image on the FSF account is not one that a programmer would have put in place. If you look at it, you'll see.
> if they are still whining about sussman, then the coup isn't over.
That's consolidation; it's what every regime does after the coup. Even if you have seized power, the guy running the water treatment plant is not your guy, but you need the water treatment plant to stay operational, so you don't replace everyone at once. You can't replace the guy running the water treatment plant unless you have gotten rid of the guy that installed the guy that runs the water treatment plant, though.
I think it's past time for a new organization. Even if the FSF was fine and concerned solely with promoting software freedom, it's a single point of failure. (I'm sure you won't, but I sincerely hope no one else says "OSI" to me.)
> 2) I've seen good things from FSF related projects lately
I am interested, but I also do not have much faith in the people in charge of the FSF proper.
> savannah still works
Well, that's a centralization point. A decentralized point would be better, and barring that, a thousand centralized points. git.fse, plenty of git servers. There's a new one Ori did that currently powers only9fans/shithub (GPL and runs on the only complete GPL'd OS, Plan 9, which thus respects the living hell out of all of your freedoms).
> They've been doing a good job of walking the fine line between appeasing sjws and racist shitheads and keeping their eyes on the prize as far as I'm concerned.
I am skeptical but I am ready to be pleasantly surprised. I don't think you can appease both of those groups and I don't think either is worth appeasing and both of them will kill your organization because everything they do is to serve their own political goal; you have to tell both of those groups and any groups not yet invented that an organization created for the sake of free software is concerned with free software and that political ends have no place.
The header image on the FSF account is not one that a programmer would have put in place. If you look at it, you'll see.
> if they are still whining about sussman, then the coup isn't over.
That's consolidation; it's what every regime does after the coup. Even if you have seized power, the guy running the water treatment plant is not your guy, but you need the water treatment plant to stay operational, so you don't replace everyone at once. You can't replace the guy running the water treatment plant unless you have gotten rid of the guy that installed the guy that runs the water treatment plant, though.
I think it's past time for a new organization. Even if the FSF was fine and concerned solely with promoting software freedom, it's a single point of failure. (I'm sure you won't, but I sincerely hope no one else says "OSI" to me.)
> 2) I've seen good things from FSF related projects lately
I am interested, but I also do not have much faith in the people in charge of the FSF proper.
> savannah still works
Well, that's a centralization point. A decentralized point would be better, and barring that, a thousand centralized points. git.fse, plenty of git servers. There's a new one Ori did that currently powers only9fans/shithub (GPL and runs on the only complete GPL'd OS, Plan 9, which thus respects the living hell out of all of your freedoms).
> They've been doing a good job of walking the fine line between appeasing sjws and racist shitheads and keeping their eyes on the prize as far as I'm concerned.
I am skeptical but I am ready to be pleasantly surprised. I don't think you can appease both of those groups and I don't think either is worth appeasing and both of them will kill your organization because everything they do is to serve their own political goal; you have to tell both of those groups and any groups not yet invented that an organization created for the sake of free software is concerned with free software and that political ends have no place.
>Yeah, maybe I shouldn't have; I just assume they've blocked the bugout zone
Doesn't seem like they have nor does it seem they hid their block list both outgoing or on their about page.
https://fba.ryona.agency/?reverse=mastodon.xyz
>MIT's CS department (nearly all Windows after Microsoft flooded the place with cash) I am of the belief that the coup was successful and that Microsoft finally won
That's really retarded for the school to do so.
How will you build your own OS or make your own partitions in school?
Doesn't seem like they have nor does it seem they hid their block list both outgoing or on their about page.
https://fba.ryona.agency/?reverse=mastodon.xyz
>MIT's CS department (nearly all Windows after Microsoft flooded the place with cash) I am of the belief that the coup was successful and that Microsoft finally won
That's really retarded for the school to do so.
How will you build your own OS or make your own partitions in school?
@NonPlayableClown @jeffcliff @fsf @rms
> That's really retarded for the school to do so.
If you are in charge of making sure the engineering department is still credible, then yes, it is. If you are in charge of padding out your retirement and funding your department and getting promoted and whatnot and you do not care about engineering, then it is the rational maneuver.
> How will you build your own OS or make your own partitions in school?
Microsoft VirtualWhatever.
> That's really retarded for the school to do so.
If you are in charge of making sure the engineering department is still credible, then yes, it is. If you are in charge of padding out your retirement and funding your department and getting promoted and whatnot and you do not care about engineering, then it is the rational maneuver.
> How will you build your own OS or make your own partitions in school?
Microsoft VirtualWhatever.
>If you are in charge of padding out your retirement and funding your department and getting promoted and whatnot and you do not care about engineering, then it is the rational maneuver
I suppose short term gains but students will and should straight up leave.
You are at a drastic disadvantage compared to other colleges.
>Microsoft VirtualWhatever.
That's not really building your own OS or partition.
That's just running a windows installer.
Also I'm pretty sure MicroSuck is ditching Hyper-V because it's performance is god awful.
I suppose short term gains but students will and should straight up leave.
You are at a drastic disadvantage compared to other colleges.
>Microsoft VirtualWhatever.
That's not really building your own OS or partition.
That's just running a windows installer.
Also I'm pretty sure MicroSuck is ditching Hyper-V because it's performance is god awful.
@jeffcliff @fsf @rms What I mean to say is that this is an indicator of who is in charge of that account.
@NonPlayableClown @fsf @rms @jeffcliff
> That's not really
If you care about money and not engineering, then that doesn't matter.
You remember that story about that thousand-year-old construction company in Japan, the oldest corporation on earth? And the guy that presided over its bankruptcy and closure? Boomers don't care if they're that guy. They don't care if they destroy something.
> That's not really
If you care about money and not engineering, then that doesn't matter.
You remember that story about that thousand-year-old construction company in Japan, the oldest corporation on earth? And the guy that presided over its bankruptcy and closure? Boomers don't care if they're that guy. They don't care if they destroy something.
>Boomers don't care if they're that guy. They don't care if they destroy something.
Thank God they are dying off.
Thank God they are dying off.
@NonPlayableClown @fsf @rms @jeffcliff The damage they have done will take generations to repair, but gen-X is inert and the millennials/zoomers do not seem like the people to do it; I can do what I can do, but ultimately, if the world is flooded with garbage, I will have to learn to swim in garbage.
Oh btw can 100 confirm that P isn't blocked.
I think fse was unfortunately on a follower only basis.
I think fse was unfortunately on a follower only basis.
@jeffcliff @fsf @rms
> anyone that wants to push Sussman out is trying to kill the project.
Turns out that this was Drew DeVault.
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> anyone that wants to push Sussman out is trying to kill the project.
Turns out that this was Drew DeVault.
draft.png
certificates.png
drew_devault_dies_by_the_sword.png
The millennials are the boomers kids through and through. Anyone who thinks they'll be substantially different in charge hasn't been paying attention (other than they're significantly less talented)
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@lunarised @fsf @jeffcliff @rms DeVault is the guy trying to torpedo Stallman and also apparently Sussman, thus guaranteeing his own special place in hell. DeVault this time has written a screed and a call to action to remove rms and Sussman and several other people (see above remarks about Sussman; anyone that is trying to remove Sussman from the FSF is trying to kill free software), which he then published anonymously, then posted everywhere, then came back as himself to say "Wow, this is such a great website, and so thorough, we should do what this guy says!"
rms's opinion was mainly that if you call it sexual assault it implies violence, and that the law doesn't dictate morality, per the emails:
csail-emails-reordered.pdf
rms's opinion was mainly that if you call it sexual assault it implies violence, and that the law doesn't dictate morality, per the emails:
csail-emails-reordered.pdf
@p @fsf @rms @jeffcliff
Seems like a case of a clearly Autistic person (read RMS) didnt like the language being used and opted to reframe the problem in a way he thought was easier to reason with, Where others thought he was diminishing the original problem by doing that
Is that a fair assessment?
Seems like a case of a clearly Autistic person (read RMS) didnt like the language being used and opted to reframe the problem in a way he thought was easier to reason with, Where others thought he was diminishing the original problem by doing that
Is that a fair assessment?
@lunarised @fsf @jeffcliff @rms Yeah, he 'd the proceedings and this was exploited by the people that have been trying to kill rms for years.
@p @fsf @rms @jeffcliff If i may interject for a moment, What you are classifying as Rape, is actually Sexual Violence/Rape or as ive taken to calling it, Sexual Violence and Rape
@p @fsf @jeffcliff @rms I feel to clarify my position
I have heard nothing but fantastic things regarding Susman as a lecturer and professional fellow. I havent dug into why he's being thrown out with the bathwater, will do so soon, but the dude is clearly liked by the community, has done phenomenal work for free software, and software development in general, and if a university's interest is having the worlds best and brightest, only someone far from that description would consider jettying him
RMS is a bit more controversial. I respect what he does, I don't agree with it all the time (I do want to use proprietary stuff if its the easiest way to do something), but I can respect a homie for standing up for what he believes in, and following his own principles. I think his dissection of SA/Rape was pretty gross, but gross != evil in my book, and I can respect that people often say things bluntly to get a point across
If i ever see this fucking Drew Devault guy, im going to install Ubuntu on his personal computer i s2g
I have heard nothing but fantastic things regarding Susman as a lecturer and professional fellow. I havent dug into why he's being thrown out with the bathwater, will do so soon, but the dude is clearly liked by the community, has done phenomenal work for free software, and software development in general, and if a university's interest is having the worlds best and brightest, only someone far from that description would consider jettying him
RMS is a bit more controversial. I respect what he does, I don't agree with it all the time (I do want to use proprietary stuff if its the easiest way to do something), but I can respect a homie for standing up for what he believes in, and following his own principles. I think his dissection of SA/Rape was pretty gross, but gross != evil in my book, and I can respect that people often say things bluntly to get a point across
If i ever see this fucking Drew Devault guy, im going to install Ubuntu on his personal computer i s2g
@lunarised @fsf @jeffcliff @rms Ha, that was actually the thing he was saying; the girl was ordered by Epstein or Maxwell to go bang Minsky, and rms said that it's misleading to call it an assault.
The the grounds that this somehow constitutes defending the actions, DeVault has been trying to get Stallman removed (or, more likely, when this happened he finally found an excuse). The irony is that, although it is a stretch to say rms was defending pedophilia, DeVault has explicitly defended pedophilia:
2024-10-19-040421.png
drew_devault_dies_by_the_sword.png
The the grounds that this somehow constitutes defending the actions, DeVault has been trying to get Stallman removed (or, more likely, when this happened he finally found an excuse). The irony is that, although it is a stretch to say rms was defending pedophilia, DeVault has explicitly defended pedophilia:
2024-10-19-040421.png
drew_devault_dies_by_the_sword.png
@lunarised @fsf @jeffcliff @rms
> I have heard nothing but fantastic things regarding Susman as a lecturer and professional fellow.
Likewise; the lady didn't even know he was famous.
> I havent dug into why he's being thrown out with the bathwater,
Year Zero attempts by Drew DeVault and others. Remarks upthread, before it turned out to be Drew DeVault again: "That's consolidation; it's what every regime does after the coup. Even if you have seized power, the guy running the water treatment plant is not your guy, but you need the water treatment plant to stay operational, so you don't replace everyone at once. You can't replace the guy running the water treatment plant unless you have gotten rid of the guy that installed the guy that runs the water treatment plant, though."
> If i ever see this fucking Drew Devault guy, im going to install Ubuntu on his personal computer i s2g
Oh, he's probably running Linux, just he's just also a piece of shit (as you can gather from the IUD screenshot) and he spends a lot of time trying to shoe-horn his politics in:
1729298368486784.png
> I have heard nothing but fantastic things regarding Susman as a lecturer and professional fellow.
Likewise; the lady didn't even know he was famous.
> I havent dug into why he's being thrown out with the bathwater,
Year Zero attempts by Drew DeVault and others. Remarks upthread, before it turned out to be Drew DeVault again: "That's consolidation; it's what every regime does after the coup. Even if you have seized power, the guy running the water treatment plant is not your guy, but you need the water treatment plant to stay operational, so you don't replace everyone at once. You can't replace the guy running the water treatment plant unless you have gotten rid of the guy that installed the guy that runs the water treatment plant, though."
> If i ever see this fucking Drew Devault guy, im going to install Ubuntu on his personal computer i s2g
Oh, he's probably running Linux, just he's just also a piece of shit (as you can gather from the IUD screenshot) and he spends a lot of time trying to shoe-horn his politics in:
1729298368486784.png
@amerika @fsf @jeffcliff @lunarised @rms To be fair, you can say "likely" but not "future", as they may not get an opportunity.
@p @fsf @rms @jeffcliff @lunarised
"rms's opinion was mainly that if you call it sexual assault it implies violence"
In law, violence is not required, only the perception by the victim that a threat exists.
This is the Leftist transition from "rape" (violent crime with victim resistance) to "sexual assault" (like regular assault, perception of victim that violence is imminent or will occur if resisted).
In California, for example, a sex assault conviction requires the victim to have had sex and testify that she was in fear. Mistaken consent cases can easily become sex assaults and the only thing filtering that is grand juries and DAs.
"rms's opinion was mainly that if you call it sexual assault it implies violence"
In law, violence is not required, only the perception by the victim that a threat exists.
This is the Leftist transition from "rape" (violent crime with victim resistance) to "sexual assault" (like regular assault, perception of victim that violence is imminent or will occur if resisted).
In California, for example, a sex assault conviction requires the victim to have had sex and testify that she was in fear. Mistaken consent cases can easily become sex assaults and the only thing filtering that is grand juries and DAs.
@sj_zero @p @fsf @rms @NonPlayableClown @jeffcliff Id argue we're going to be worse. The "greatest generation" started paying the stupid to breed but we reached the point of no return under boomers. Now such a high percentage of my generation is retarded that we can be manipulated into doing anything.
@p @fsf @rms @jeffcliff
DeVault confirmed for closet poastie who wants to remove Sussmann, Stallmann, and other Jewish names.
DeVault confirmed for closet poastie who wants to remove Sussmann, Stallmann, and other Jewish names.
@amerika @fsf @jeffcliff @lunarised @rms
> In law,
The legal definition of assault can include aggressive yelling. The law for assault with a deadly weapon explicitly says that you do not need to attack but that it can constitute ADS if you touch the hilt of your sword, whether or not you unsheath it. I don't know about other states.
The entire point of what rms said is that the legal definition does not match the colloquial definition, and that using the legal term outside the context of a courtroom carries implications that are unwarranted.
Not only that, but as legal definitions vary by jurisdiction. Words cross jurisdictions easily but legal definitions cannot: their entire purpose is to explain what constitutes $x under a given law. So, touching the hilt of your sword may not mean anything in a different jurisdiction, but "assault" has a colloquial definition and it is "A violent onset or attack with physical means, as blows, weapons, etc.; an onslaught; the rush or charge of an attacking force; onset; as, to make assault upon a man, a house, or a town." You may be guilty of assault in a given jurisdiction for grabbing the hilt of your sword, but that's a matter of whether a given law applies to a given action, not a matter of what words mean.
Anyway, I don't want to get bogged down trying to relitigate rms's remarks: I am interested in the campaign to eliminate him. That argument is not relevant. They were looking for an excuse, and "Was it a good excuse?" is an absurd question to ask.
> In law,
The legal definition of assault can include aggressive yelling. The law for assault with a deadly weapon explicitly says that you do not need to attack but that it can constitute ADS if you touch the hilt of your sword, whether or not you unsheath it. I don't know about other states.
The entire point of what rms said is that the legal definition does not match the colloquial definition, and that using the legal term outside the context of a courtroom carries implications that are unwarranted.
Not only that, but as legal definitions vary by jurisdiction. Words cross jurisdictions easily but legal definitions cannot: their entire purpose is to explain what constitutes $x under a given law. So, touching the hilt of your sword may not mean anything in a different jurisdiction, but "assault" has a colloquial definition and it is "A violent onset or attack with physical means, as blows, weapons, etc.; an onslaught; the rush or charge of an attacking force; onset; as, to make assault upon a man, a house, or a town." You may be guilty of assault in a given jurisdiction for grabbing the hilt of your sword, but that's a matter of whether a given law applies to a given action, not a matter of what words mean.
Anyway, I don't want to get bogged down trying to relitigate rms's remarks: I am interested in the campaign to eliminate him. That argument is not relevant. They were looking for an excuse, and "Was it a good excuse?" is an absurd question to ask.
@p @fsf @rms @jeffcliff @lunarised
The campaign against RMS is another Anita Hill, obviously.
The Reddit necropedophiles want to conquer something new...
The campaign against RMS is another Anita Hill, obviously.
The Reddit necropedophiles want to conquer something new...
@NonPlayableClown @p @fsf @rms @jeffcliff @sj_zero
Since most of them are mixed-ethnic, they are sort of like incompetent, bumbling Boomers.
Since most of them are mixed-ethnic, they are sort of like incompetent, bumbling Boomers.
@amerika @fsf @jeffcliff @lunarised @rms DeVault's been after rms for years; this time he is using anonymous socks. But in general, these people have contempt for hackers.
the_kernel_was_made_by_techbros.png
the_kernel_was_made_by_techbros.png
@p @jeffcliff @fsf @rms
>The header image on the FSF account is not one that a programmer would have put in place. If you look at it, you'll see.
that's quite a header image. The programming references:
<include free.h>
{{cin>>}}
cout <<
Only the last is somewhat correct.
The computer displayed is a laptop with a large touchpad and a thin bezel, which is more likely to be apple-inspired than anything hackable. It can't be frame.work with the hinge.
Non-computing references dominate the image which looks like a cross between dystopian business graphic and state gradeschool propaganda:
a trophy
'the cloud'
an atom
a microscope
a pamphlet
a mouse cursor?
a ruler
a protractor
a pencil
repeat, repeat, with random dots and beams
>The header image on the FSF account is not one that a programmer would have put in place. If you look at it, you'll see.
that's quite a header image. The programming references:
<include free.h>
{{cin>>}}
cout <<
Only the last is somewhat correct.
The computer displayed is a laptop with a large touchpad and a thin bezel, which is more likely to be apple-inspired than anything hackable. It can't be frame.work with the hinge.
Non-computing references dominate the image which looks like a cross between dystopian business graphic and state gradeschool propaganda:
a trophy
'the cloud'
an atom
a microscope
a pamphlet
a mouse cursor?
a ruler
a protractor
a pencil
repeat, repeat, with random dots and beams
@apropos @fsf @jeffcliff @rms
> Only the last is somewhat correct.
Yeah, nobody that writes code would upload that image. It's the "kanji tattoo" version of programming, someone to whom all of these squiggles are gibberish.
> which is more likely to be apple-inspired than anything hackable.
I didn't notice that but that's true.
> Non-computing references dominate the image which looks like a cross between dystopian business graphic and state gradeschool propaganda:
Yeah, there's no way, right?
honkeykanji.jpg
> Only the last is somewhat correct.
Yeah, nobody that writes code would upload that image. It's the "kanji tattoo" version of programming, someone to whom all of these squiggles are gibberish.
> which is more likely to be apple-inspired than anything hackable.
I didn't notice that but that's true.
> Non-computing references dominate the image which looks like a cross between dystopian business graphic and state gradeschool propaganda:
Yeah, there's no way, right?
honkeykanji.jpg
