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Honey, the new Drew pedo-post just dropped!

Drew Devault actively defends pedophiles on reddit. Not hypothetical pedophiles in the abstract. He defends an actual pedophile on reddit against being called a pedophile because you shouldn't "be an ass" to pedophiles.

https://undelete.pullpush.io/r/todayilearned/comments/udlwf/_/c4um2n0/?context=4

@crunklord420 every time

@SuperDicq @crunklord420 "It's a dick move to try and shame him publicly"
-Drew Devault, creator of the Stallman Report

Drew wrote this post while trying to remember every piece of lolicon content and pedophilia apologia he's ever written on reddit. SAD!

Also your taste in sci-fi is trash. Fire Upon the Deep is lame and I have no idea why it's so well reviewed. It's NOT GOOD. I'm reading a new book right now, I'll be sure to write a micro-review (a crunk-view as I call it) when I finish.

@crunklord420
>I have no idea why it's so well reviewed
maybe because the vernor vinge died recently? the same thing happened with greg bear and his blood music, and it's actual fucking trash

@PurpCat @crunklord420 @SuperDicq

> -Drew Devault, creator of the Stallman Report

Also Drew...

@toiletpaper @PurpCat @SuperDicq oof

@SuperDicq @crunklord420

It looks like he may have been into hardcore lolicon hentai i.e. drawn child pornography at least until 2016, and may still be.

Latest developments in his KiwiFarms thread. I wouldn't blindly trust anything of course, but I've summarised what seemed like credible evidence to me here:

https://fedi.feministwiki.org/notice/AnDMo1HKgoTEbgq5tw

@SuperDicq @crunklord420 Does it really have that implication? Murder is illegal but animated murder isn't.

I think "drawn child pornography" is just the most straightforward and honest term that one can use. Foreign terms like "lolicon hentai" obscure what it is, IMO.

Whether its creation, dissemination, and/or possession should be illegal is another question... Morally, I'm strongly against lolicon, because I think it can serve as a pipeline to crime against children, and I've observed on 4chan how lolicon communities "house" pedophiles. But making things that don't directly cause harm is always a difficult topic. A lot of parallels there to hate speech legislation, I think, which is also a complicated topic IMO.

@SuperDicq @crunklord420

I guess "animated murder" was a weird choice of analogy because nobody uses such a term. But something like that is conceivable. Imagine that some weirdo makes a game, perhaps in VR, where the only objective is to break into someone's house and murder them. This would probably be referred to as a "virtual murder" game.

Responding to your points one by one, for the sake of structure. Don't really wanna start another argument, just explaining my logic.

1. I'm not using the term "drawn CP" to make it sound worse than what it is. I think "lolicon" makes it sound *less* bad than it is. It makes people forget what it really is, IMO. Also, some of my fedi followers may genuinely not know about lolicon. For example I've some followers (or followers of followers who may see a repost) from Spinster.xyz who are slightly older women, some of whom may not know much about anime terms.

2. Using the "virtual murder game" analogy: The word "virtual" makes it clear that it's not actual murder, so of course it wouldn't fall under murder laws. Should "drawn CP" fall under CP laws? That depends on the exact intent of the laws. Is it to protect victims from further victimization? To curb the "demand" and thus dissuade people from creating more? Or is it also to make sure that the idea of child abuse overall isn't normalized? The first two wouldn't apply to drawn/animated CP but the third would, so that's the central question.

3. (Gonna have to split this up into multiple paragraphs, coz this is gonna be long.)

I can tell you don't know much about lolicon. I wish that was me. I've seen a lot when I was into anime and 4chan, and looked into it in detail after starting to get into feminism-related debates.

Side-story: Seeing that 4chan's "loli threads" had real potential abusers, and that nobody on the site wanted to talk about this problem, was what made me quit 4chan in the end. When I started actually looking at these threads, after becoming skeptical of their supposed harmlessness, I quickly came upon a thread where a guy was commenting on his real-life 9 year-old sister in a sexual way. Me and a small number of others started a shitstorm, and all it did was get us banned. The moderators nuked everything and didn't tolerate any discussion of what happened because "off topic." Most people didn't seem to mind, and some even seemed to think it was funny that a real 9 year-old child was in danger and made jokes like saying "you know what to do!" to the guy or asking "so when are you uploading pics?" That was the last straw for me.

Anyway. Getting back to the age range in lolicon:

It's generally pre-pubescent girls. I'd say 6 to 12 or so. The characters are almost always flat-chested, or have very little chest development at most. Sometimes an older girl or even adult may be called a "loli" because she's drawn to look like a child, but those are exceptions. (Not counting the "she's actually 500" excuse by the way, which is very common; I'm talking about the apparent age of the body of the character.)

Some of the most prominent "loli" characters in mainstream anime include:

- Shinobu from the Monogatari series, who is a 500 year-old vampire in the body of an 8 or 10 year-old. (Exact age of her body depends on which part of the story it is, if I remember correctly.)

- Illya from the Fate franchise, who has the body of a 10 or 11 year-old or so if I remember correctly. And in the spin-off series Kaleid Liner, she goes to elementary school.

- The Strawberry Marshmallow (Ichigo Mashimaro) characters, who go to elementary school.

- More recently, the "dragon loli" Kanna who's apparently "equivalent to a primary school student at Oborozuka Elementary School, which she attends as a third grade student" (from Wikipedia).

As far as actual hentai (pornography) goes, perhaps the most (in)famous example is one known through the "pomf" meme, from a manga where a very young girl is severely abused.

I think sexualizing teenagers is so normalized in Japanese and anime culture that there's not even really a term for that. Though I guess some "normies" in Japan may also call a man "lolicon" if he's into teenagers, because "lolicon" is basically used like "pedo" in colloquial Japanese if I'm not mistaken.

@SuperDicq @crunklord420 @taylan >Konata from Lucky Star (18)
??

@SuperDicq @crunklord420 @taylan aint no way that bitch is 18 her id is fake nigga

@SuperDicq @crunklord420 @taylan no i dont like watching anime girls who look like little kids and scream and whine annoyingly for entire seasons

@SuperDicq @crunklord420 @taylan >Again this is going to sound very Stallman-esque but most lolicon characters are teenagers, not children. What they in the field call "toddlercon" is closer to "drawn child pornography".
child pornography involving teenagers is still child pornography there's no teenager pornography

@SuperDicq @crunklord420 @taylan i tried watching a scene of azumanga undubbed and it was so annoying to my ear i couldnt. it's a very annoying anime and doesnt have an interesting storyline or episode theme. anime for not yet conscious and able to comprehend complex dialogue kids basically tbh

@meso @crunklord420 @taylan @SuperDicq it's an acquired taste to watch anime undubbed

@SuperDicq @crunklord420 @taylan good ig

@SuperDicq @crunklord420 @meso @taylan Anime that has humans suck. Only watch real kemo animes like One Stormy Night.

@lina @crunklord420 @taylan @SuperDicq nono i just meant these animes specifically. ive watched other animes undubbed and they're fine. they show what the original creator meant to do really well as well, which cemented my opinion of Girls Last Tour and it being a poorly written waste of potential. cant remember if ive watched portions of Lucky Star but it's the same loud and annoying shit as Azumanga probably

@lina @SuperDicq @crunklord420 @taylan i should watch initial d now that i Drive (2011)

@meso @crunklord420 @taylan @SuperDicq that's also an acquired taste ngl, i enjoyed azumanga because of how lighthearted and silly it is, it's just comfy, maybe it's cuz i watched it with a friend who's always been nice to me, that's why i am biased to thinking that it's like that

@meso @crunklord420 @taylan @SuperDicq and wangan midnight

@SuperDicq @lina @crunklord420 @taylan real

@SuperDicq @crunklord420 @meso @taylan kouki 2108(6)

@lina @crunklord420 @taylan @SuperDicq this is what i couldve had if i could buy the small volvo

@meso @crunklord420 @taylan @SuperDicq maybe one day i will buy a 2112 and rwd swap it

@SuperDicq @lina @crunklord420 @taylan have you ever driven into a guardrail?

@lina @crunklord420 @SuperDicq @meso

> acquired taste

That's an interesting way to spell "objectively superior taste."

@SuperDicq @crunklord420 @meso @taylan yea we're silly

@taylan @crunklord420 @lina @SuperDicq they say beer is an acquired taste but it sucks ass

@SuperDicq @lina @crunklord420 @taylan ok i thought it was rare if youre an ok driver i will be more careful on the road now. heard two retards crash on the intersection next to home, was on the balcony when it happened. saw the guy's rear fender crumpled up

@meso @crunklord420 @taylan @SuperDicq the only driver who never gets into car crashes is a driver who doesn't drive

@lina @crunklord420 @taylan @SuperDicq worried about my volvo now :(

@meso @crunklord420 @lina @taylan @SuperDicq i crashed mine its part of breaking it in after 350k miles

@creamqueen @crunklord420 @lina @taylan @SuperDicq the parking lot thing? how'd that happen again?

@SuperDicq @crunklord420 @meso @taylan Crap. Messed up the encoding. Let me try again, bb.

@SuperDicq @crunklord420

> when I hear "drawn CP" I think about material that is designed to look realistic

Some of it is. I forgot his name but there's an (in)famous lolicon hentai mangaka who's been accused of tracing real CSAM. There's a spectrum from highly stylized to realistic.

Of course, once it passes a certain threshold of realistic, it wouldn't be referred to as "lolicon" any more because it wouldn't be in anime style. But that's a further advantage of my terminology: I'm making the arguments I'm making against *all* types of drawn CP, because the common defenses that people use for lolicon could be used for photo-realistic drawings, CGI, and AI-generated material as well: "It's just fantasy, nobody's actually getting hurt, it's just a drawing / CGI / AI-generated pixels..."

> It is very much detached from reality and most fans of the genre know this.

I think this is a form of confirmation bias or a social bubble effect. You subconsciously ignore / avoid or maybe really never come across lolicon guys who show signs of being real pedos, so you assume there is no such problem. In my observation, it is a problem.

I've another story to tell, outside 4chan: This was in the #anime channel on Freenode if I remember correctly. One guy in this channel was living in some third world country or something. Cambodia maybe?? Two regulars of the channel traveled to meet him. I think the guy was a child pimp and they went there for child prostitution, though I've no direct evidence of that. These guys uploaded a photo they took once, from the airport, of a tiny child (maybe around 4) sucking on some toy ball, and made jokes about it. At the time I was still under the mentality of "lolicon isn't bad" so that caused me quite some cognitive dissonance. It was much later that I thought back to that and told myself "yeah, those guys were probably pedos and the other older guy they visited was probably a pimp." I sat in a fucking chat room with those people. Yuck.

> I don't think there's anything I care less about than my posts being understood by fucking Spinster users of all places lmao.

I do. We're discussing the terminology I choose to use. You can continue to call it lolicon hentai, and I'll continue to call it drawn child pornography.

> 4chan does not represent the average otaku and you should definitely know that

It represents a very sizeable portion of it. Even Drew's bookmarks included 4chan boards. I'd say *ignoring* 4chan is brainworms actually, because 4chan has been extremely influential on Internet culture in general.

But like I've said, my observations span outside of 4chan as well.

> Megumin, Victorique, Tsukiko, Konata

Whether these characters are "loli" in the sense of "lolicon" would be debatable I guess. Megumin doesn't look like a loli character at all to me. Tsukiko definitely looks like a lolicon drawing, but she also looks 12 at most. Victorique looks very young and seems to dress in "goth loli" fashion but that's a fashion style and not necessarily related to "lolicon" because the character isn't drawn in an erotic way from what I can tell. Konata also isn't drawn in an erotic way.

Not every character that may be called a "loli" in some way is automatically subject of "lolicon" because the latter term implies that the character is drawn not only to look like a child, but also in an erotic fashion, though sometimes it can be unclear whether the mangaka intended that. (For example, normal people wouldn't see Ichigo Mashimaro characters as erotic in any way, but supposedly the mangaka used to draw lolicon hentai and the characters seem popular among lolicons so I have to assume it was intentional.)

> Oh and speaking of the "she's actually 500" argument, I think it's only fair if this argument goes both ways. If a character is canonically 8 years old but acts like an adult, guess what, they are not really 8 years old.

That's not a valid analogy. The correct version would be:

"If being 500 but having the body of a 10 year-old is bad, then being 10 but having the body of a 500 year-old is OK."

And yes, if a character looks like a withered skeleton while being canonically 10 years old, then I'd say those who find that sexy are not pedos/lolicons but rather necrophiles or something.

If someone exploited a mentally disabled woman who's 30 but has the mental capacity of a 10 year-old I wouldn't call that pedophilia either.

@SuperDicq @crunklord420

Earlier, I had mentioned "pomf" as an example of how depraved "lolicon" can be.

Just now, I found out Drew wrote an image source finder bot for Reddit, and it ran on a sub called r/pomf among others.

That sub is now suspended, but according to archives, it was exactly what it sounds like...

Details on KF. Anyone who thinks "lolicon is no big deal" may want to look at the archive of r/pomf, but be warned that it's literally full of drawn child p*rn and you may become physically sick.

@SuperDicq @lina @meso @taylan these post made me end up downloading a few episodes of Initial D. I haven't watched an animu in forever. I do Touge runs in Assetto Corsa but never seen the show lmao.

At this point Initial D transcends anime.

@crunklord420 @SuperDicq @lina @meso @taylan Initial D is a romance story first, car anime second.

@Forestofenchantment @SuperDicq @lina @meso @taylan wtf gay

@SuperDicq @lina @crunklord420 @meso @taylan I watched it until the second season where the guy completely flubs hooking up with the lady racer because he thinks he's not good enough for her, then starts crying after realizing how hard he dropped the ball. I didn't want to watch more screwups of that magnitude.

@SuperDicq @lina @meso @parker @taylan bruh the CG animation is hilarious, the 2D cut outs standing on the void while the grass exists in a lower plane.

@crunklord420 @parker @taylan @SuperDicq @meso thats why its SOVL

@SuperDicq @lina @crunklord420 @meso @taylan Yeah I get it fits the characters, a little too relatable maybe. I'll probably give it another go once I finish Legend of the Galactic Heroes.

@SuperDicq @lina @crunklord420 @meso @taylan Alright you sold me, I'm giving it another go.

@parker @lina @taylan @SuperDicq @meso it's not bad. The appeal comes from that 90s anime aesthetic appreciation and car culture. If you're not into that then it's just a kids show.

@SuperDicq @lina @crunklord420 @taylan Watching it again, it's surprising how much character development Itsuki (the annoying retard) goes through after his car crash. Come S1E16 he's almost decent.