@zoon@radraccoon you'd think with how much he talks about American politics that he lives here, but you'd be wrong because he's European and lives in Ireland.
@eriner like, imagine if there was some sort of document, which defined what the government could or could not do. Like, what 'constitutes' the government.
It should be able to be changed, or amended, but it should be a much harder process than passing regular laws that already fall within the bounds of what is allowed.
@eriner@zoon@radraccoon Correct. While he speaks with an American accent, he is English. He spoke a web conference I attended back in ~2014. This statement is consistent with how I remember his talk 10 years ago.
@eriner there's somewhat of a point in the tyranny of the majority, in some cases that is. But the shitlibs conception of "democracy" pretty much boil down to "my guy wins" which is absolutely frightening
@eriner@zoon@radraccoon Jesus christ, that's even worse. While American fucking elections and other shitshows do end up affecting a lot outside, like the George Floyd media shitshow that led to riots and such all over the world (American media should have been hanged because of that, unfortunately the local media were happily complicit with it all) you just have to start wondering at some point what the fuck are all these foreigners caring to that level about rights in a country they're not even in
@coolboymew@eriner Yeah, this is one of the first things that the founding fathers were afraid of when they set up our system. That's why there's all these complex systems in place to keep the majority from just rekting everything.
@eriner The funny thing is he would be the first to complain if the Supreme Court ever ruled against a decision the "majority" of Americans agreed with, despite it being unconstitutional/wrong. Hypocrisy at its finest.
@PurpCat@radraccoon@zoon@coolboymew This is why I want an American internet that is inaccessible to Europeans, Asians, Brits, Chiners, Japs, Mexicans, Spaniards, and everyone else.
It would instantly remove 80% of the retards and America could finally begin healing.
@eriner@bates@radraccoon@zoon he complains about european democracy a lot but this is probably about electing trump yeah. the problem with his analogy like the nazi bar analogy is that it just presupposes your opponent is a nazi/baby eater so you're automatically empowered to violently resist.
@thatbrickster@eriner i don't know what he or people like him believe because no philosophy seems to predict it and it just seems like you need to do whatever he thinks is the right thing. democracy isn't magic its just the idea that government force should represent the will of the most people, measured somehow, or it is unjust. the focus is on just representation nothing else really
@eriner@sun If the majority wants to eat babies, you don't have to eat babies, but it also means that's what the majority (or at least a large portion) wants to, so there's no point in complaining. If you don't like being around baby eaters, you leave.
I live in Norway and if the majority of Norwegians make something important to me illegal, I'd throw myself over to Finland or Iceland instead.
I will admit that large overarching entities deciding on laws is a bit stupid. For example if the northern half of the EU votes in favor of making something illegal, the entire south of the EU could get something important to them banned. Same applies to the US. But it doesn't change the fundamental fact that if you're a non baby eater in a baby eating jurisdiction, you either accept eating babies or you should go somewhere else.
@quad@eriner i think its ok to explore non pure-democracy systems but its lame that pro democracy ppl in the usa bleat about majority rule until it does something they don't like. aral is a little different than that, but he is talking about american democracy i think
@sun@eriner to be fair america's democracy is absolutely fucked.
american politics isn't politics to them, it's basically a religion. you're either a red believer or a blue believer with a couple of people in the middle swinging the pendulum. it's bizzare
> Norwegian calling American politics "democracy" is in a thread critical of a Turkish man living in Ireland who constantly complains about American politics
@sun I can relate with a local issue where a festival we don't celebrate was dumped on our local park and the volunteer told me that it was there because of 'democracy'. I don't remember being asked or who they asked, but locals weren't impressed with how much it screwed up property access while cars clogged up the road and forced traffic to stop for their U-turns. They did say it was for the 'local community' but people were turning up from 80+ miles away. Local my arse.
@quad@eriner in this case I think it applies because a bunch of people are basically going to accept that trump won both procedurally (electoral college) and morally (got the most individual votes). they might resist everything he does using any legal means at their disposal but they're not going to prevent violently his inauguration or something. all the stuff about him being a fascist or if he wins there will never be another election is just the same thing they say in every election to try to win but then if they lose they accept it. all that talk was just tactical. I understand if europeans don't know that. it was stronger than before by degree but it's the same old thing.
on the other hand if I am interpreting him correctly he is kind of implicitly saying that people don't have to accept the results of a clear majority win, which is more religious than red/blue
@sun@eriner Personally I don't care much how a country is ruled, as long as it's ruled in a way that respects and protects the values and lives of the people in the country to the degree possible.
A country should keep 95% of their people safe and happy. And whoever ends up in the 5% should either try to peacefully convince the ones around them or leave. Whether this is done via a "pure democracy" or not I don't have much of an opinion on
@quad@eriner I am actually fond of at least the theory behind america's constitutional republic, that we have a democracy but some protections of individuals are blocked from the normal lawmaking progress (reality of it in execution I am less fond of.)
@eriner@sun i honestly find it really funny that america who constantly brags about their democracy, pretty much just flips a coin every 4 years to see if the country is going to collapse a lot or just collapse a little
@quad@eriner is that not actually democratic or is european democracy not based on voting that roughly conforms to majority rule? or do you just mean in practice the usa is always close to collapsing no matter who wins
@sun@eriner I'm no expert on American politics, but to me it seems like America could be a fantastic country if only late-stage capitalism didn't go overboard.
@quad@eriner I both think there should be a lot less rules on individuals and small business but there should be better anti-monopoly stuff for megacorps and america would be a lot better.
@sun@eriner mostly the latter. as far as i understood, there's a good amount of people who voted for trump not because they agree with him, just because they disagreed more with democrats
i will admit that i do mostly ignore american politics though, so I'm not the best person to ask for a nuanced opinion on this
yes I think trump won mainly because when people are really dissatisfied with the government they will vote out the ruling party even if they don't agree with the alternative party
@eriner@radraccoon@zoon@coolboymew they're worried about russians not knowing that you don't need to be on a state payroll to be a "foreign actor", just a westaboo who has never stepped foot in the usa.
@sun@quad@eriner can't call something majority rule even when there are two options selected by unelected comity, like half of adults don't have a vote counted, and everyone who gets elected then consistently votes against majority-popular policies
@ageha@quad@eriner I was just picking out of a list of common european objections to try to signal that I am aware of them. I understand your objections except for the non-voting half
@eriner Yeah, that's why we're not a democracy. We're a republic, so the minority opinion still has a voice. You'd think as a minority opinion they'd be into that.
@ageha@quad@eriner it's unsolvable because if you can't/won't even just plan around one vote every couple years then that is already so much less work you won't do than the work it takes to get good candidates. I think the truth is that most people just don't want to think about the political process at all and that's normal, it's bad in the long run but that's why we used to just have kings because you have your own life and you just accepted that other people told you what to do. even with political franchise and the will to execute it it's pretty exhausting and the candidates are still poor and you still don't have much control over your life. power attracts pathological personalities and normal people are disgusted by that when they see it on naked display and don't want anything to do with it.
A true democracy is when the government asks the people to vote on everything that comes before the government. Which is unfeasible due to time constraints.
What the left thinks a democracy is, is mob rule. That's what it boils down to. If you don't believe as they do, they will force you to believe as they do. That's reality.
I know leftists, and I'm related to leftists. They are brain-damaged.
@eriner There's a difference between democracy and demagoguery, modern American "democratic" principles have a lot more in common with demagoguery than democracy
We had this conversation in 4th century BC Athens, I guess this is what happens when classical education goes out of fashion
