As if Elon himself relishes the Challenge of hiring more American workers, or training fresh talent, or paying people more for less work. That kind of increased Competition doesn't seem to be nearly as desirable for some reason. Not only does he make use of these extremely faggy Shaming tactics, he's also a giant hypocrite.
@ChristiJunior
This is how you know the difference between people who's morality is 100% pragmatic, and who's morality is based on universal principles.
And also, why I understand Elon 100 times more, then Thunderfoot ever will. Elon might be briliant and hard working. But he is completely self-centered. That means, that he is fighting the woke ONLY, because it did ruin his personal life a great deal. On the other hand, free speech???? Fighting for the good life of his employees?
Just look at this clip. He cannot even accept the concept of people being happy while working. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pLLVqqF8VA
He'll be lucky if he survives the next year with how he's handling it.
This is an ACTUAL variant of this fake and gay leftist meme:
@ChristiJunior
100%
I have never before agreed with a leftie meme this much, but in this case, you are right on the money.
@Hoss @ChristiJunior
I will be honest. Lefties say, that Trump could shoot someone in street, and we would still vote for him. And they MIGHT be right.
BECAUSE, I stopped taking their criticisms seriously after they spent a month talking about him saying the famous "grab them by the pussy" line. Because that literally means "I like women" in chadspeak.
Oh no........ He likes women? How dare he. IMPEEEECH!!!!!! HE'S STRAIGHT!!!!
He doesn't seem to understand we don't want any immigration not just illegal
unless he's going to give me an office with a lock that I can furnish however I want and significant control over my schedule re: meetings, he's leaving productivity on the table and probably a huge amount of it. like 80-90%
silicon valley founder types who spend all their time talking to people have no idea what kind of focus real engineering work requires or how disruptive it is to have forced context switches all the time
But Musk is a single man whose entire value is getting other people to do what he wants. His visions are dependent on other people believing in it. And there is some value to that. He and others like him were born into wealth, but there are others born into that prosperity that cannot generate another generation of wealth. So there's something to that, but at the same time ... dude wouldn't know the first thing about building a fuel transfer system for a rocket. I doubt he'd be able to really learn it either.
This indeed seems to have broken his mind.
Understanding of context and nuance is rare these days. A more interesting question is whether it was ever less rare?
@Hoss @ChristiJunior @egirlyuumimain
Except, when considering what he's doing, 1 in 10 is a miracle number.
That's why I have a real issue with calling him a scammer on these projects. Even though, some of the projects do seem like it, after they failed, I have to compare the failures to restarting space race and changing the way people see automotive industry.
best i can do is one of these where you get no assigned seating and will be hotdesking every day despite the mandatory return to office policy
there are 15 hours of meetings each week, from the morning standup (that always runs long because John in the Atlanta office can't figure out how to use the teams room) to the 6 different types of goofy hipster project management meetings with 6 different project managers and 6 different teams you're dragged into for some reason to the mandatory "training" sessions on the most bullshit of topics (today's is about email signatures).
just out of frame to the left is a coworker from the network infrastructure team, with a fluffy tail and fox ears for some unknown reason, who doesn't even work in the office cause they somehow got full remote in their contract, yapping loudly to another coworker about the government cheese caves in missouri after the topic drifted there from a discussion that began with a loud "what the fuck why would you NAT this??". you try to regain focus on your work, but it's futile. the fox-person has pulled up a chair and they are now browsing the local junkyard web site after giving themselves a side quest to find the most expensive car part they had on the lot.
Elon has failed ten times for every one of his wild successes, whereas most people never achieve a tiny fraction of what Elon has despite also not starting failed businesses. Regardless of what you may think about his other activities or philosophies, Elon has advanced spaceflight more than anyone since von Braun, and by a huge margin, and he's still going. You can criticize him on a lot of points, but he's objectively an excellent businessman.
Jealousy eats people alive.
You never fail if you never try. People who never try don't understand this.
Steve Jobs was infamously similar, and so was the 2000s VW CEO. They wanted something to happen, they would make it happen, and they didn't care about the cost of it. You would help it happen. I heard that the reason multitouch displays boomed was Steve Jobs was against the resistive touch "stylus" screens of the 00s and wanted to have a natural touchscreen at any cost.
You could say the same at how Tesla made EVs big, combined with the diesel scandals of the mid 2010s making countries and politicans bet on it. He was the idea guy, but he had the money and could recruit people to "make it happen" including people who were in his cult of personality.
@gentoobro @ChristiJunior @egirlyuumimain @Hoss
I preffer the phrasing of:
A master has failed more times then you even tried.
Buckle up.
We've all seen the crazy identity politics stuff come out of StackExchange over the past few years. They completely dropped OpenID. They probably spend 1000x times as much on servers now that they're on AWS, and, of course, they're now on the whole "AI" bullshit wagon.
I use to hate cubicals up until around 2012 when I finally ran into something worse: the open workspace layout. I do not want to see my coworker picking their fucking nose, or have them constantly in my peripheral. In a lot of cities this was just due to real estate costs, but I had even been at some shops with more than enough floor-space who STILL did half-height cubes as if that bullshit made people actually communicate more.
Letting Whites compete means letting us exclude all other races. If that happened the companies that did so would crush all competition in short order.
But you have to take Elon for what he is: It's a complicated mess of things, good and bad and all over the place. He's a capitalist, but he's only the world's richest man because he's a crony capitalist. He was a darling of the left for creating the useless EV industry, but he's a darling of the right for taking over Twitter and making some boomer tier tweets. He helped Trump get elected, but he's still a neoliberal who wants to import unlimited cheap labor. He lies a lot about his projects, but some of his projects have been knock it out of the park successes.
And you can just go "Oh, well those projects weren't from him", but I've seen how you can have a lot of technologies that never get off the ground despite being ready to go for decades, and it seems like a surprising number of techs do actually get to market under Elon, so while he might not be what people treat him like, he's obviously got the right stuff in his head to get things done when they're actually possible.
So friend or foe? He's more like an unpredictable 800 pound gorilla.
@PurpCat @ChristiJunior @djsumdog @LukeAlmighty It's "fuck you" money joined with the tenacity to say "fuck you."
Steve Jobs had an aversion to color in his computers until the market forces told him you need color. Ditto with active cooling.
@hancoktom41 @ChristiJunior @egirlyuumimain @Hoss @gentoobro
Elon even at his most insane just wants people to live at their work...
Meanwhile, Bill literally has public talks about reducing population through vaccinations. They are not the same.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DtkfWaCzsas
Keep in mind, he made everything a Reddit-brained NPC would find cool. EVs that don't need gasoline and can go fast from a standstill and have tech gadgets inside like in the sci-fi movies (pushing the "tech gadgets in cars" meme)? Rocket launches to eventually go to space again? Heckin cool d00d.
@sj_zero @ChristiJunior @egirlyuumimain @Hoss
> So friend or foe? He's more like an unpredictable 800 pound gorilla.
And we have a room filled with fragile plates, that we don't want to stay in one piece.
We need to gaslight them into going back to counting lines of code.
He should be the CEO of Nissan.
@PurpCat @ChristiJunior @djsumdog @LukeAlmighty The phenotype's tendency to stick with strange and stupid ideas is why when they're successful they are super successful; they're high risk, high reward personified.
V10 diesel SUVs that needed an engine drop to change an alternator? Cars that didn't have DEF tanks and ended up both failing emission tests and killing the DPFs? Having multiple high-end vanity brands like Bugatti, Bentley, Porsche, and Lambo under one roof? The W8 Passat and making a luxury car under the VW brand? The high-mpg XL1 that was a low production car?
So much of this shit was vanity project related or just engineering dick flexing, but it was unsustainable and the next CEO would end up with his problems and boy were they huge. Now VW is just German Nissan, especially as they go all in on the EV fad and sales are low. They literally had a high-profile union threatening to strike, only deciding to only cut 35,000 employees in the end to avoid one.
https://www.electrive.com/2024/10/11/vw-electric-deliveries-down-by-ten-per-cent/
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/vw-union-agree-cut-35000-jobs-germany-avert-strikes-2024-12-20/
Turns out Ghosn wasn't as stupid as the Japanese made him believe and they want to merge with Honda now.
The tl;dr is that back in the days of SomethingAwful, they wanted to raid Reddit but one of the problems was their tactics failed because the new breed of goon at the time were feminist/goon hybrids (there's a lot of lore on this if you read archived posts from SomethingSensitive, like about the catlady janny there). Their idea of trolling sounds familiar, they would piss people off and use the "it's irony bro" and "we're trolling the trolls" which sounds an awful lot like modern Reddit rhetoric where it's okay to bully an autist if you can make up/bring up something retarded he did that makes it okay.
They also were high on their own supply, and you can see where this went.
https://edramatica.com/Shit_Reddit_Says
One thing that's pretty funny is if you tune into lemmy, the same sort of people are there and so 90% of the lemmy instances are equally insufferable (which is a shame, the medium of threaded discussion in groups isn't inherently bad)
Of course imageboards are completely dead thanks to various factors internal and external (why do you think the dead internet theory exists, it started on 4chan), but Reddit wasn't dead and so users had an actual plan they were able to carry out and execute well.
@sj_zero @ChristiJunior @LukeAlmighty @Hoss @PurpCat @egirlyuumimain @hancoktom41 I'd just tell them to join Mastodon.social so they can't see anything I do.
https://rdrama.net/post/327958/case-study-gaymers-actually-want-sexy
It's also had issues with people posting illegal content.
But niche imageboards back when 8chan was still around or started to die off really took a shit. Even on 8chan.moe, you'll notice some threads that haven't been bumped for months or years. Meanwhile even the spam and fed filled 4chan moves so fast there's "sliding".
When people block my instance for being on fediblock, for example, it's because I told them to. I'm too dangerous to listen to, but not too dangerous to follow orders from.
For the first time in a long time, the feds might face actual, genuine fear.
Maybe tell them to join bluesky
The whole reason that site is dead is well, in the early days what happened was there was a huge falling out between admins, along with the owners/admins being outed as underage iToddlers doing degenerate things online.
https://intheshell.valiantghost.com/chronicling-lainchan-b2d57582a795
Turns out you also can't have an altboard succeed if there's drama (which seems to be hard for the imageboard crowd to avoid)
I think Elon first and foremost has conned himself. I think he truly believes what he says. He's rather autistic.
Nobody should worship anyone else, regardless of talent or success. That being said, DOS and early Windows made a lot of retarded technical decisions. If Bill was responsible for them, his programming skills are extremely suspect.
@PurpCat @ChristiJunior @LukeAlmighty @Hoss @sj_zero @egirlyuumimain @hancoktom41 It might be decentralized eventually. Impossible to know bc everyone who looks at the code and reads the documentation comes out with a completely different interpretation of how it's supposed to work.
mexican death ants
One time a flying giant leafcutter ant crawled into my sock overnight and I put it on the next morning. It was rather terrifying. Fortunately, they don't bite.
The ant situation here is much better than it is in Florida. Fire ants are the worst.
I'm really out of the loop on the imageboard sphere after /furry/ died on 8chan all those years ago and /tech/ got worse.
I don't talk about it much, but as an example I strip media from several woodchipper themed instances (though I don't fully block anything)
I've heard the latest VCFMW had furries, at least one retrotech e-celeb coming out as gay, etc. I also know at least one had a breakdown in his latest video about how "I'm getting rid of everything d00d" and is having breakdowns left and right these days.
I'm divided on if I want to go, but leaning towards no (especially because they hosted it next to Chiraq of all places).
- replies
- 1
- announces
- 0
- likes
- 0
@hancoktom41 @ChristiJunior @LukeAlmighty @Hoss @sj_zero @PurpCat @egirlyuumimain Describing BSky as "control freaks" is goofy. They're actively cooperating with other open source projects outside their sphere of influence to create interoperability. Literally right this minute, you can follow and talk with users on Blue Sky from your Fedi account.
@PurpCat @ChristiJunior @LukeAlmighty @Hoss @sj_zero @egirlyuumimain @hancoktom41 Not through reading the blog post yet but the main thing I'm noticing (something that the author would probably agree with) is that almost every criticism he's leveraging against BSky is also true about Fedi.
People shit on 8 bit guy for some video from years ago or that he necked a CRT meanwhile he actually wrote more games for old HW than many of these people have. It's hilarious because of how well documented old MacOS is (there's gamedev books, programming books, the Inside Macintosh series, leaked and reverse engineered schematics, all scanned online).
@ChristiJunior @LukeAlmighty @Hoss @sj_zero @PurpCat @egirlyuumimain @hancoktom41 The main thing I'm seeing that isn't comparable is that Fedi doesn't have tentative centralized solutions for things like direct messaging, but it is still unencrypted for some reason, and AT is brand new, whereas ActivityPub (or its predecessors) have been around for a very long time.
@hancoktom41 @ChristiJunior @LukeAlmighty @Hoss @sj_zero @PurpCat @egirlyuumimain From what I hear the documentation is not great but I know people have succeeded in running their own PDS so it is doable.
Oh cool, you got an old computer. What are you going to do with it? You've got a compiler, you've got games and old software, what will you run on it? Hello?
@ChristiJunior @LukeAlmighty @Hoss @sj_zero @PurpCat @egirlyuumimain @hancoktom41 That's not what I'm talking about though. BSky helps devs who build bridges with other federated protocols, so even if their own isn't exactly complete yet, it's silly to say they're somehow fraudulent and power hungry.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sukuk-miq4U
@ChristiJunior @LukeAlmighty @Hoss @sj_zero @egirlyuumimain @hancoktom41 Something noteworthy within the blog post @PurpCat linked a few minutes ago
The motto within Blue Sky is literally "The company is the future enemy"
"Elon, listen, you're a smart guy, everyone says it, okay? The smartest, I tell people that all the time. But right now, you're not being very smart. You're being difficult, very difficult. You think you're big because you have rockets, you’ve got Mars dreams, whatever. But I’ve got something bigger—the truth. Huge truth. It’s massive, and it’s going to shake everything up if I decide to let it out. You know what I’m talking about."
"I could get on TV tomorrow, Elon. I could get in front of the American people—millions, maybe billions watching, because they love me—and say, 'Folks, it’s all fake. Space? Never existed. It’s all wires and green screens, Hollywood stuff. NASA’s been lying to you. And the earth? Flat as a pancake. Flatter than that, even.' People would go nuts, Elon. It’d be chaos. Beautiful chaos. Tremendous chaos, frankly."
"And don’t forget, Elon, I’ve got the files. Top secret stuff. Big secrets. People don’t even know these exist. I’ve seen them. I could show them. Pictures, documents, maps. Maps, Elon! Flat ones. I’ve got generals who’ve told me, 'Sir, if this ever gets out, it’s over.' But maybe it’s time, huh? Maybe it’s time the people know."
"So here’s the deal. You’re going to do what I say. You’re going to play ball. Whatever little plans you’ve got, you can keep them. But if you don’t cooperate, I go public. And trust me, when I go public, it’s the biggest thing anyone’s ever seen. Bigger than Tesla. Bigger than Mars. Bigger than anything. So think about that, Elon. Sleep on it. Or don’t—maybe you’ll be too busy recalibrating your little satellites. Tremendous satellites, by the way. But not as big as the truth.”
weirdly, the church and the Nazis both had solutions to that which involved getting rid of the Jews
but the topic at hand is the need to expel all pajeets
@PurpCat @ChristiJunior @LukeAlmighty @Hoss @sj_zero @egirlyuumimain @hancoktom41 Yeah, there's a lot of ways it could go wrong. I don't think the audience on BSky is all bad, I found a lot of interesting people by deliberately avoiding politics, but they've definitely prioritized being a replacement for the mainstream, which as the article notes, is necessary when you have shareholders. They've structured the company in a way where they don't have to compromise to shareholders if it means compromising the project goals outright, but at the end of the day, they have to secure their funding to build what they want to build.
Reading the criticism just come off as hollow when I think how the alternatives would fare if they were in BSky's place.
He says BSky is costly to host because of the size, key words being, because of the size. Fedi and NOSTR would have similar issues if they were operating at a large scale. Moreso NOSTR (it has a similar hosting structure, just without a hierarchy in place to prevent the problem of missing data) but if Fedi is big enough, smaller instances will also become more expensive to host because you'll need more connections to scale the thing or it just won't work correctly. You'll wind up with missing information all over the place.
You don't get to have it both ways. If it works, and if lots of people are using it, it's going to be expensive and somewhat inaccessible.
He complains about all data being public, which is also true here. We don't have E2EE, no one is interested in doing it except Mastodon. NOSTR has it so I guess it beats out BSky there, but NOSTR has other problems that make it a security nightmare. E2EE doesn't matter if your private is compromised, which is definitely going to happen en masse at some point. The only reason it hasn't yet has to be lack of interest. Once it does, NOSTR is going to be fucked bc no one can be bothered to implement key rotation.
He complains about credible exit being the standard, but in practice, you can't move your data between Fedi instances either. You're stuck to one central server that acts as a middle man that just happens to drag in off-site content. Can we even call Fedi decentralized, that being the case? Kind of, it depends what you mean, but like Blue Sky, it's not resilient in the way people think it is.
What difference does it really make if you're on a bad Mastodon instance or BSky.social? Mastodon technically brings in content from other sites, but it's strictly moderated according to a centralized standard, which is also what centralized services offer, and you can't leave either without starting from scratch.
It raises the question of why decentralization even matters, and my conclusion as of right now is, it doesn't. Not until something changes, we're just on a right wing Twitter clone that does some experimental things, interesting things, but as of right now, until identity is portable, it's pretty useless. You might as well be on any other centralized site for all the good it does.
Silverpill is working on fixing this, which is the main reason I'm on Mitra, in hopes that one day this account will eventually be somewhat portable and permanent. (NOSTR has "solved" this issue at the cost of having no credible security, so BSky isn't really down any points.)
@ChristiJunior @LukeAlmighty @Hoss @sj_zero @PurpCat @egirlyuumimain @hancoktom41 Tl;dr ActivityPub nerds criticize the failure of other systems when the fact of the matter is, ActivityPub itself has barely solved any of the issues people think it solves/want it to solve.
There's a difference between banning flag reacts and donating to the wrong group or making political schizoposts.
Not as much as "right wing" as much as "freetard". But you have a point. The big problem with any alternative social media site, chat program, and more is that it all comes down to the same thing.
If you're not banned from Xitter, you have zero reasons to use it. If you are, you're only going to find an echo chamber of like minded users. It depends on if you find this a good thing or a bad thing, really. It's why all the fedi artists are lolisho/Japanese artists because they got banned or harassed.
I've seen this with Zippcast, Vidme, Gab, altboards, and many more. They can only successfully exist if a community is large enough to sustain it, like with Reddit clones for a single topic today or altboards during their peak. Even then, you're not going to rdrama.net or the IP2 communities win page to discuss something you can discuss elsewhere online for the most part. You're going there to discuss something censored by Reddit.
Discord got so big not only because of it's shilling, but everyone forgets the early days when you could join many servers without a login and you would be then pressured into signing up, and even better it was all in your browser. It's genius, and the latter still works for people who want to log into Discord on wagie computers (every successful old school IM chat had a web client, be it Java or browser based).
@PurpCat @ChristiJunior @LukeAlmighty @Hoss @sj_zero @egirlyuumimain @hancoktom41 That's... not the point I was making at all.
It's not wrong but also has nothing to do with the issue I pointed out, which is that the network of instances can be called decentralized, but your instance, the thing you are posting on right now, is just as centralized as Twitter. You receive no personal benefits from the fact that the centralized website you post to pulls and pushes content with a broader network. It's a neat little gimmick but it offers literally 0% more resilience than centralized sites.
https://netwerkmovement.com/h1b-visa-sponsoring-companies/
I am very concerned about our ammunition stocks," Eyre added. "If we were to consume munitions at the same rate that we're seeing them consumed in Ukraine, we would be out in days in some cases, and it would take years to restock.
Your army can't even afford range day.
https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/defence-insiders-sound-alarms-on-state-of-canadian-military-1.6788009
If you had to host every fedi post everywhere from everyone then it'd be difficult to host because of its size too, and that's how it can scale, by only having each instance pull what it needs. Bluesky added 10 million accounts during its twitter exodus, but so did the fediverse. It is a big thing if you were to try to have everyone have everything. In fact, it'd probably be way bigger, because the fediverse has been around longer, and has been posting for many additional years across many platforms.
Most of the problems of fedi are baked into decentralization -- you're fragmented because instances are islands that connect to each other to send or receive data as required. Moderation and federation issues? Baked into decentralization because everyone gets to make whatever platform they want. Data portability? baked into decentralization because not everyone knows about your account or all your posts, and nobody but your home instance can verify it's you.
For some people, that decentralization is a feature not a bug, but for a lot of people they want a centralized platform with decentralized elements and they're not wrong to want that. One downside of decentralization is your reach is what you find for yourself. In some ways it leads to more centralization because you'll find lots of people who ought to be running their own instance instead just hopping onto mastodon.social and sharing the one server with a million other people instead of building a network from one server that won't see the rest of the fediverse without tracking down other users.
Nostr is a different beast, but it's got a lot of issues with putting the tech too front and center -- npubs and nsecs, this isn't how normal people use computers, even techies. If Alex succeeds with ditto, he might be able to use the technology as a backend to at least be usable on a day to day basis by normal people.
@egirlyuumimain @ChristiJunior @Hoss @Eiswald @Bunsen Elon Musk is still the definition of an antichrist he just hates his son lol
I get that the left sees brown people getting sad and short-circuits, but think about what you're defending here. It's not about India or Indians, they could be from Norway for all I care. Our systems should work for us as a people. If they serve to extract wealth from us and make us poorer with less opportunities to better ourselves, then they are parasitic and should be regarded as any other malignant presence in our lives.
@sj_zero @ChristiJunior @LukeAlmighty @Hoss @PurpCat @egirlyuumimain @hancoktom41 >Fedi is easier to host because it's a la carte, instances pull what they need from who they need them from, making it highly decentralized when you host another instance.
That doesn't really make it decentralized, but that aside, let's scale it up then.
Say Fedi is the size of Twitter. You host an instance with 20 people. One of them gets popular, we'll keep it at a modest 5000 followers that your instance has to push posts to every time to, and let's generously say that's only 100 instances, every time.
Let's say a few of your users are big fans of art and they follow 500 accounts a piece, mostly art accounts, whose media you're proxying (which you will be doing ideally.) It's true that it will never be as massive as BSky, but it also won't work as well, and it's still not going to be this cheap and easy solution.
Like with so many things on here, it only works right now because Fedi is irrelevant and no one is stress testing it.
>Most of the problems of fedi are baked into decentralization
Some are, but not really your examples. Moderation isn't really an issue, it's just a thing that exists, and I don't think you know what people are talking about re: "account portability." Some "decentralized" protocols have it and some don't. It already exists for NOSTR, it's a work in progress for Fedi (hopefully someone figures it out bc nothing is usefully decentralized until they do) and it's planned for BSky, we'll see if they actually get it done.
No offense but the rest of your post is kind of word salad and doesn't have anything to do with anything.
@hancoktom41 @ChristiJunior @LukeAlmighty @Hoss @sj_zero @PurpCat @egirlyuumimain That's a bit more generic, don't you think?
1) intel collection platform; get a general "pulse" on the world and also find anomalous behavior (i.e. potential threats)
2) psyop platform; shape people's views with "the algorithm"
I'm honestly shocked how many people thought Elon was going to change these primary purposes of Twitter. His ONLY jobs are 1) to bring right-wing people back onto the platform so they can once again be spied on more easily, and 2) limit their influence.
Making Twitter more "efficient" had nothing to do with saving money, since Twitter is and always has been unprofitable (yet continues on somehow...); it was all about luring the right wing back on.
And now that the right wing is back on, it's apparently time to increase the pressure of the boot on their necks again.
I can trace my roots here to 1622, and I am not unique in that regard. If 400 years, that's 15-20 generations, mind you, isn't enough for a people to establish themselves then nothing will ever be enough. The rest is just whataboutism not worth mentioning. We're talking about corporations abusing a system meant to fill gaps in the employment pool or provide specialists to instead import workers for pennies on the dollar that can't quit the moment they find something better.
We should "vaccinate" more CEOs he he he wink wink you know what I mean I'm not a federal agent.
What do you mean falling for it?
>OH MY SCIENCE! THE ULTRA DEADLY DELTA PLUS REWARDS VARIANT IS ON THE RISE? WE NEED ANOTHER LOCKDOWN NOW!!!
@andreas @ChristiJunior
This, + direct phone line to the president.
2/3 of earths satellites belong to him...
Yeah..... He realllllllllyyyyyy will go bankrupt any day now.
@ceo_of_monoeye_dating @ChristiJunior @andreas
I.... agree.
Czech counting words beyond a million are totally retarded
