Speaking (ranting) yesterday at the Munich Security Conference JD Vance asserted that the US & Europe no longer had shared values.
Well, I think it *is* clear (and has been for sometime) that there is a transatlantic division on values, with many refuting & criticising those shaping current US politics.
The prospect of the US 'winning' & asserting the 'values' of the Court of the Tangerine Tyrant is an existential threat to many of America's previous allies...
@ChrisMayLA6 I agree! Europe is socialist, and america is now some kind of mix of nationalist/capitalist.
Europe has been able to free ride on the US for its safety and security, while constantly whining in envy. It has bitten the hand that protects it.
As we know, what goes around comes around, and this illustrates beautifully why in international politics, it pays to pull your punches a bit, and not criticize a person who might one day become the president.
@ChrisMayLA6 Europe now has a simple choice.
Bend the knee, and become a nationalist/capitalist union (I hope for this!) or say "f*ck you" and increase taxes in order to build up its own defense, and double down on socialism.
The second option will lead to the long term breaking up of the union, brain drain, and over all a lowering quality of life.
It will also lead to more authoritarianism. We are already seeing with chat control, that the socialist EU politicians are seeing an end game
@ChrisMayLA6 where the government monitors all, and defined the truth, so that they can close down the bank accounts and jail ideological opposition.
@h4890 @ChrisMayLA6 How is Europe socialist? Alternatively, how are you not forgetting to breathe?
Let’s not pretend the answer to both ain’t “an external source is narrating it to me”.
High taxes, enormous state, and the state controls everything.
Need I say more?
Please awaken from your ideological slumber.
Hmmm... if we think completion is a good idea, then surely competition between these value systems would allow a sorting of those who agree with each (provided they can move between systems, of course)?
@ChrisMayLA6 Yes! This brings us back to a topic I _think_ we discussed before and that perhaps landed in venn diagram territory.
That if people were to vote more with their feet, we'd end up with more harmonious societies.
I also think it would be great from a scientific point of view, because we could then study the performance of these countries from an ideological point of view, and see which countries perform best according which criterias.
In fact, Johan Norberg has done a part of
@ChrisMayLA6 this and shown that the more liberal (in an economic sense) and capitalist a country is, the less environmental damage and the happier the population.
But!
As we also agreed, this does not reflect people who get more happiness out of ideological goals, and value them more than, say, material welfare.
Those people will of course not give much for Norbergs work.
Norbergs work on the other hand, is a kind of "aggregate" of the entire population, so perhaps it does show that
@ChrisMayLA6 the majority does appreciate material welfare more than the ideologues.
@h4890 @ChrisMayLA6 lol, so we're a "socialist" Europe, I'm sure at least half the population in the EU will disagree 😂
How do you come to this weird conclusion?
In those decades of peace and stability within the borders of the EU, we've seen socialist and conservative governments come and go. It's called democracy and it has been working pretty well for decades. Russia, China and now, unfortunately, bad actors from the US (like Elmo) try hard to undermine that, but we're very aware of that.
@riaschissl @ChrisMayLA6 Nope. Just look at the amount of taxes, it's enormous. Parties come and go, but make no significant difference.
Taxes are the highest in the world, and europe is becoming an islamist state.
In no western european country do you pay less than 50% in taxes, and in no western european country, do the people have the power.
In the east, there are still some pockets of freedom, but the politicians are bsuy trying to conver them to socialism again through the EU, bribed
@riaschissl @ChrisMayLA6 with low-tax, high pay EU nonsense jobs.
That's just the truth. I'm sorry if you do not want to realize it.
yes, these themes are often popping up in different ways in our exchanges & I think are sort of defining how we both see politics (and why the venn diagram shaded area actually is quite well populated).... we may be moving towards a classic social science 2x2 matrix 😉
@ChrisMayLA6 Ahh... the 2x2 matrix brings back fond memories from my business classes!
I remember one teacher who was very disillusioned with them said, remember students, regardless of the theory of 2x2 upper right is always good and lower left always bad. ;)
Moreover, in eliminating every ideology but itself, it is implemented and extremely modernist view of the world, with postmodernist merely being the weapon that it uses to crush its opposition. This is important because the Europe that was a successful civilization was a Europe of many different cultures, it was truly pluralist. You had Celtic and Scandinavian warrior cultures, the remains of Roman and governance and history, you had Greek philosophy, as well as the various cultures of barbarian tribes who had lived either on the outskirts of the old Roman empire or had been somewhat subsumed into it. It was this combination of cultures, which brought different strengths and weaknesses to the table, which ultimately ended up forming the vibrant Europe that ended up taking over the world. Now we can have a discussion about the morality of taking over the world of course, but the fact is that besides doing that they also ended up ending the global slave trade, they ended up essentially inventing the modern concept of science, and produced the richest freest civilization in the history of the world to that point. The fact that the successor to that title wasn't another civilization altogether but a former colonial holding that split off before the French revolution is telling.
While there are differences between Italian fascism and European fascism, there are enough similarities that I think we can consider one to be the evolution of the other rather than completely different things. Rather than one being totally different than the other, I'd argue the latter just tries to sand the sharp edges off the former.
The Europeans never gave up on fascism, they just drew a smiley face on it and considered the job done.
Arguably, it goes back to the second world war and the sort of command and control bureaucracy that occurred back then. That was important to win a world war, but like most government programs it never fully went away, it just became civilianized.
And of course people who follow me know full well that I'm not just using the f word without ever having talked about what it means. Fascism is a totalizing ideology where everything is subsumed under the state, even Private industry. People are still allowed to "own businesses", but only in so far as they are doing the will of the state.
If you want to make a European scream in pain, threaten to take away some of their totalizing state.
There are two minor differences between Italian fascism and the European blend.
The first is that the Italians were nationalistic, they believed in Italy as a concept, whereas European fascists instead worship the state as an apparatus anywhere it goes, so if they can create one big hyperstate across europe, they will worship that, and anywhere that they can create a world government they will worship that.
The second is the particular brand of militarism. Europeans will pretend that they hate armed conflict, they don't want to get involved, they don't want to control anyone they just want to be chill and happy... And then the moment anything happens, they're sitting there demanding to know why their big brother America hasn't sent in the tanks. It's a fun little mental trick where you still love militarism, you just want someone else to do all of the fighting so that you can sit there in your Ivory Tower, sniff your farts, and Lord over everyone else about how Superior you are and everyone else.
Now the Europeans might tell you that it's completely different because the Italian fascists were openly trying to empower themselves whereas the enlightened Europeans fighting to make the world a better place for humanitarian, climate action, and social justice. Which only means that it's pretty pathetic that the modern European man is less honest then in Italian fascist or a German national socialist who were at least open about their goals. Moreover, the Europeans might claim that they don't use things like secret police, propaganda, or brute force. Unfortunately, this is in direct contrast with reality where all three of those are used, just in a less obvious way than their predecessors.
So a question that naturally arises from all this is, what does a less fascist Europe look like? Well, a hugely important thing would be the reduction of the state. Now Europe has pretended to reduce the power of its state through the guys of neoliberalism, but the problem is it's a lie. They didn't reduce the power of the state, all they did was eliminate social programs for the common Man and increase social programs for their fascist elites. Italy today has something like 60% of its economy solely based on the state. Let's get that down to 20% and we can start talking about not being fascist.
What I think is going to happen first though is the elimination of europe. It's a suicide, just like Italian fascism and German national socialism.
I think that the war in Ukraine really laid the truth of European fascism bare. Don't get me wrong, Russia was wrong to invade ukraine, and the death of generations of young men is really something terrible on a scale of that I can't even imagine. But if America hadn't been there to dump hundreds of billions of dollars into that war, what would have happened? And the Europeans know that, which is why they were pounding the table so hard for America to continue supporting a war that isn't even on the same continent as them. Meanwhile some of the pettiest racist crap you've ever seen in your life happened: kicking people who haven't been in Russia for decades off of sports teams for out of competitions because they are russian. I guess it turns out the European is still just as racist as they've ever been, they just need a good cause.
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@h4890 @ChrisMayLA6 you obviously don't have a clue about the European Union, almost troll quality.
I've been living in Europe all my life and never ever have I paid even close to 50% in taxes, and the same goes to the vast majority of Europeans. But just imagine, unlike the US, we happen to tax the rich and they don't run away! Social stability, good infrastructure, excellent public health systems, good public education, very low crime rates translates to decent living conditions for all.
Hahaha, you are comlpetely clueless. You don't even seem to know the taxes you pay, or you live off the public teat! =D
Count all taxes, fees, capital taxes, VAT, gasoline tax, electricity tax etc. and I can promise you that the majority of your income goes to taxes unless your salary is laughably small, in which case you are one of the benefactors of socialism.
You're such a tool of socialism, I laughed out loud when I read your mistaken post!
Please clown some more! 😂 🤡