I started exploring libertarianism in 2008 with Ron Paul. I would say my interest peaked during the covid mass hysteria, probably in 2022.
In 2025, it just feels like a lifeless ideology to me. My reactions to many things are still reflexively libertarian, but it just doesn't excite me like it used to.
@BaronBurdock
Thomas Sowell famously answered a question about his political alignment by saying he was, in principle, fairly libertarian but for pragmatism, he voted Republican.
For a lot of right-libertarians, it's an improvement over the existing options to have a Republican president who shuts the hell up about abortion and gay marriage, and actually takes (even a tiny handful of) concrete actions to cut spending anywhere.
Not ideologically pure, true. Better than the options, also true.
@BaronBurdock
What even was the name of the guy the big-Ls put on the ballot? Chase Oliver or something like that? The guy known for doing absolutely nothing, leading nothing successfully, serving no role in governance, winning no previous elections for anything?
If you were excited about that dude, I'd probably roll my eyes in distaste. But it sounds like you're feeling how many of us are: incrementalists, hoping Trump's and Musk's wild chainsaw swings occasionally nick the right targets.
@linux definitely more in the right incrementalist/pragmatist camp. I guess its kind of two observations colliding at once. I'm going to poorly articulate this, but if my libertarian society can never exist, and I am to choose some 2nd best option, I not overly concerned with how I end up there. I suppose its the whole ends and means thing, but something very unlibertarian is the pathway to more freedom, how useful is being libertarian? The other thing is more of feeling, it just feels like
@linux the energy has been sucked out of whatever the "movement" (hate that term) was. Maybe post-covid, a lot of people like me reassessed their views on things. I dunno. All I know is when I hear someone mention the NAP as an answer to anything, I roll my eyes until they hurt, I don't think I'm alone in that
@amerika @BaronBurdock @linux Been libertarian for a long time, but did actually vote pre-corona. After corona I learned that all politicians, regardless of color are incompetent and power hungry (if someone did not realize this fact during corona, they never will) so stopped voting completely since then.
Much better to free yourself through tax lawyers than losing time by putting a small piece of paper in a box.
Sadly the EU is now using the war in ukraine to increase all taxes, so it
@amerika @BaronBurdock @linux seems like it's lawyering up time again. =/
If I'm lucky my company has now grown to a size where a lot more tricks can be financially feasible than the last time I did some serious tax planning. Let's see!
The EU is trying to preserve entitlements, and will spend itself into US-style debt.
Socialism -- even one drop -- is toxic.
Politicians are selected by the voters, who are generally self-focused and oblivious to the issues not to mention in 93% of cases incompetent to decide them.
@amerika @BaronBurdock @linux This is the truth. I agree 100%. Voters, in general, are as short sighted as the socialist politicians who appeal to them. Therefore they get away with increasing debt until it crashes, while handing the money out in the form of government grants and subsidies.
No one, or very few, look at the long term. The future of the EU is 100% socialist. Just the fact that in order to get back into the AI race, the EU is looking for a political solution, will tell you that
@amerika @BaronBurdock @linux all is lost in the EU. The only thing I can be thankful for, is that due to its size, the EU will collapse slowly and not over night. I think I can live at least 30 years before it really starts to shake, and by that time, it won't matter that much to me. Too bad though, about the next generation. They are the ones who will sit with a steaming pile of sh*t. =/
When I was a kid, the politicians often pandered with patriotism and Christ.
Now they use socialism and diversity.
Not much has changed; they wave a symbol and all the round-heads run toward it waving their extended hands.
Right now, it seems to be trying to preserve the entitlements state and Ukraine war at the same time.
@amerika @BaronBurdock @linux I think the answer is more complex than that. In theory, the EU could have finished the war a long time ago. It was 1.3 million armed soldiers, and the economy is 12x bigger than russias. The population is 449 million something, against 144 million.
There's no chance russia could win, and no, they would not start nuclear war over ukraine. Especially not early in the war.
So the conclusion can only be that the EU does not want ukraine to win. They want to
@amerika @BaronBurdock @linux continue the war. Another option, which I find hard to believe, is that they are cowards and actually believe the nuclear threat. But if that is true, no amount of military will ever protect the EU since russia will steamroll over the EU with nuclear threats.
When it comes to entitlements, I think this is more or less clearly stated in some policy document, that the EU should be a world leader in "welfare". So a socialist future is what the political nobility has
@amerika @BaronBurdock @linux decided upon.
To me, that indicates a slow and drawn out decline, which will be perceived as quicker if surrounding states grow faster.
Just look at the gasps of the dying car industry in the EU. That's just one example. Another is the shocking lack of IT innovation. All signs of parasitic socialism killing the host.
@amerika @BaronBurdock @linux Note how beautifully socialism fits in with the christian narrative. Everyone will have paradise on earth, all the money you want, no requirements to do something, only thing you need to do is to vote for me.
And in christianity, it is the same paradise, land of plenty, and you only need to believe in me, and this will be realized.
The difference is that the socialists promise it in the here and now, while you have to die in christianity to get your reward.
@amerika @BaronBurdock @linux Since many might think of gaming the system by suicide, suicide is a sin in christianity to close that loop hole.
Socialisms weakness is to pull the reward into this life. If the reward never materializes, eventually the public revolts, when they starve in the streets and have nothing left ot lose.
I might add to this:
The existential question.
Socialism converts life from a question of being productive into a jail sentence.
I hate jobs, but people need something to strive for that gives them a position and a goal in life.
Socialism _steals_ that. Like everything else...
Utopian thinking is idealization of stagnation.
It's why I never got into the Christian idea of Heaven, and prefer the pagan idea of going to another place to do it all again.
I have to disagree here. Russia will warm up the human wave warfare.
The Wehrmacht was objectively a better force in every measure except the thickness of the armor in their tanks.
But outnumbered 12 to 1, there was not much they could do.
@amerika @BaronBurdock @linux True.
I think a post scarcity world, needs to crack the problem of human innate motivation.
If not, a post scarcity world, with enormous amounts of automation will end in violent revolution when the workers want to claw back their source of value.
Some people, are happy from within, and we need to understand why, and how to make more people develop a sense of innate value and motivation.
If not, socialism will come back in the form of "you against the machines".
@amerika @BaronBurdock @linux I remain agnostic. I don't have to believe or hope for anything. I will get the answer regardless, in time. Apart from that, I do believe the most likely option is eternal sleep.
@amerika @BaronBurdock @linux But that was a long time ago. The world has move on when it comes to tactics, strategy and technology. But looking at reports from ukraine, russia has not.
Russia has the advantage of throwing people into a meat grinder without the slightest hesitation or moral qualms.
Sane countries don't have that advantage. But I think numbers, updated strategy and superior technology will counterbalance that.
Who knows... we might perhaps live to get the answer?
It's just not possible.
There's always scarcity, even in a world that has a lot.
There's going to be land, where there are more attractive and less attractive places to live. There's people, where only so many people can ask of certain individual's time. There's skill, where many people don't want an automatically produced thing, they want something created just for them by a human being with skill.
There's also the fact that human desire is unlimited. Aluminum was once the world's most valuable precious metal. The top of the washington monument was made with aluminium. One of the kings of france had a set of aluminum plates they only brought out for important state guests. Once more became available, we started making everything from vehicles to drink cans out of the stuff. The same would likely prove true if unlimited gold was available, but the likelihood of building matter subatomic particle by subatomic particle and successfully doing that at scale cheaply is near zero.
Even stuff that's effectively unlimited is limited by time, location, and package. Earth is essentially a water world, but we want water on land where we live when we need it that's clean and desalinated and often packaged up for us.
Of course, the fact that material desires are unlimited doesn't mean we need to indulge those desires -- there is a moral virtue in humility and thriftiness -- but societies don't typically ignore fundamental physical laws or human nature for long and remain a going concern. It also doesn't mean that there won't be things that are abundant -- Most people can buy more salt than they have anything to do with, for example -- but the fact that you can have enough salt doesn't mean other forms of scarcity won't exist.
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Will the workers claw back their sense of value? Not deliberately. They will simply behave like brats and vandalize everything until society either eliminates them or lets them run the show (like the French Revolution).
The number of articulate humans is very small, and most just respond by impulse.
But I think a lot of people are going to be out of jobs when automation mates with LLM.
The more I see, the more I am convinced that nothing changes.
Mongols, Soviets, Russians... same approach.
Maybe technology will close the gap. I have to admit being unimpressed with most military activity I see, but no military is worse than that of a democracy in peacetime.
It is a good point. Scarcity will at least involve time, probably attention, and certainly, space.
When there are forty billion people on Earth and not even the pigeons can survive, humanity might appreciate that.
I say "might" because self-rationalizing creatures rarely admit their narcissism has failed them yet again.
@sj_zero @amerika @BaronBurdock @linux This is the truth! I was being unclear. When I said post-scarcity I was thinking of everyones basic needs being fulfilled.
You are completely correct. Human desire is endless, which means that there will always be needs to fulfill, AI or no AI. Automation or no automation.
@amerika @BaronBurdock @linux Well, let's see. Given the ineptitude of the EU I am certain russia will start another war in 10 years or so. Maybe then we'll see.
@amerika @BaronBurdock @linux @sj_zero That's the eternal challenge of the human being. Trying to fix the brain with an error in the brain. ;) You do sometimes need outside help, or chance, to jolt you out of old patterns. Even recognizing the patterns yourself can sometimes be a challenge.