DS9 is a paradox. It is some of the best storytelling in Trek, but it also fundamentally broke Trek. What it did was fundamentally break Trek by proving Roddenberry wrong; it turned out there is no utopia in the future, it just looked that way until an enemy came along that forced Starfleet to fight back for real. Shortly after DS9, that happened to the western neoliberal world order.
Nothing else has ever come out since then that's really the same as what came before. Kirk and Picard, even early Janeway, they were no longer possible in Trek and that's one reason it's never truly recovered since.
Nothing else has ever come out since then that's really the same as what came before. Kirk and Picard, even early Janeway, they were no longer possible in Trek and that's one reason it's never truly recovered since.
@sj_zero@social.fbxl.net I liked that tho. It's a hundred times more realistic. The good writing and the real Human approach to politics go hand in hand.
I don't disagree with you. But it is also true that in being more realistic they completely upend Roddenberrys original vision of space utopia and replace it with a more complex space realism.
@sj_zero I don’t know if DS9 broke Trek or if TNG was just that good thanks to the cast, directing, effects, score, and overall production quality. TNG departed from the campiness of original Trek and by Season 2 was an extremely polished show that could start to explore questions of post scarcity sci-fi with the budget and acting chops to make it fun. Basically I see TNG as unique and DS9 overlapping and retuning to form. Enterprise was surprisingly good except for the ending; the Texan (Trip?) was an obvious poke at George W Bush, but he was the most realistic character on the show.
>Our world is barely recovered from decades of war and these aliens show up claiming to want to bring us into the fold and treat us like second rate trash. Screw that!
Or the time he blew up a first contact meeting with a highly advanced species that had a third gender surrogate that basically existed as domestic slave class (he was not okay with them having slaves). He was a very relatable character to current age humans. Voyager was retarded because Janeway didnt nuke the borg when she could have. Several times. Honestly that’s about the worst thing possible from an error perspective. Total borg death.
>Our world is barely recovered from decades of war and these aliens show up claiming to want to bring us into the fold and treat us like second rate trash. Screw that!
Or the time he blew up a first contact meeting with a highly advanced species that had a third gender surrogate that basically existed as domestic slave class (he was not okay with them having slaves). He was a very relatable character to current age humans. Voyager was retarded because Janeway didnt nuke the borg when she could have. Several times. Honestly that’s about the worst thing possible from an error perspective. Total borg death.
@sj_zero Nothing ever will be the same after red and blue wizards fought on the promenade.
Early trek was naive science fiction. They had Greek Gods leading the humanity, space wizards of crazy kind, Kirk once throw a journalist under the bus because she was anti-war and "we need to get usa into ww2", and they visited mafia planet. Also there are GR: Andromeda, which is basically a continuation of trek.
>do you do anything except lifting and reading books?
>I eat
Early trek was naive science fiction. They had Greek Gods leading the humanity, space wizards of crazy kind, Kirk once throw a journalist under the bus because she was anti-war and "we need to get usa into ww2", and they visited mafia planet. Also there are GR: Andromeda, which is basically a continuation of trek.
>do you do anything except lifting and reading books?
>I eat
>Hehe I want to fuck a pokemon
>151 replies
>Effort post dissecting the fundamental change of a classic sci fi series
>1
Why try the fedi wants absolute trash just like Call of duty reskinned warfare 5
>151 replies
>Effort post dissecting the fundamental change of a classic sci fi series
>1
Why try the fedi wants absolute trash just like Call of duty reskinned warfare 5
@Dudebro @BowsacNoodle @sj_zero whoah...exactly 151 replies??? each one is a pokemon...
@gnu2 Maybe, but I remember him talking a bit like Dubya. Maybe that was me hearing what I wanted to hear or he was a swamp Floridian.
@sj_zero I agree DS9 broke trek, but not because of anything it did. Rather, because it was more subtle about still desiring a hopeful future, those who see it through the superficial popularity lens only see the surface level fights and pain. DS9 is fundamentally about upholding what trek was though. The imperfect people on the station couldn't do it as well as Picard could, but they'd still try their best.
DS9 is only part of the reason we have shitty trek now anyways, and that's only because of the fact it's being viewed by retards who don't understand or care for trek and just want to make star wars.
DS9 is only part of the reason we have shitty trek now anyways, and that's only because of the fact it's being viewed by retards who don't understand or care for trek and just want to make star wars.
@Iffine @sj_zero As an Old Trek fan, it forever pains me that we'll never get anything even half as good as TNG and DS9. Nu Trek is just slop after slop after slop.
I am still of the mind that any Star Trek campaign I ran using the official Star Trek TTRPG would still be at least marginally better than any of the shows they're putting out now
I am still of the mind that any Star Trek campaign I ran using the official Star Trek TTRPG would still be at least marginally better than any of the shows they're putting out now
@BowsacNoodle @sj_zero They had an interesting concept with the borg and then fucked it into the ground, specially with the movies. I always felt the background of the borg should've been something along the lines of an AI of an ancient race that was programmed to preserve specimens and information about species, with it going haywire to the point of assimilating everything to both preserve and to create an end to things as species are constantly evolving and changing and thus the task would never end otherwise.
@Heil_Honkler @sj_zero I’m not sure if they ever went into detail about the borg origin story, but fan theories in the 90s and 00s were around some type of nanobot medical tech that went south and had a telepathic interface and basically they made a way to make more and started spreading. It just turned into body horror pretty quickly which kind of sucks. Like an impossible to defeat enemy because it can just morph and adapt all the time. I enjoyed First Contact though. The scene where Picard takes the safety off and goes mafia on the borg drones is kino.
@sj_zero It's funny that libtards say "you have to be a leftist to like Star Trek" when Voyager and DS9 both moved away from the libtard utopia concept, and both of those shows could still be called "the heyday of Star Trek" that built the fanbase.
@BowsacNoodle @sj_zero well I mean its nanotech but not grey goo, there is an intelligence or prime directive guiding them. thats why I think it wouldve fit with their setting to be archivists/preservers of knowledge gone wrong, especially as a counterpoint to the federations utopian view of knowledge and truth that we see in the picard speeches.
@BowsacNoodle @Heil_Honkler @sj_zero I know a lot of people think the writers got the idea of the borg from Fred Saberhagen‘s Berserker series
@sj_zero
I would disagree that DS9 "broke" Star Trek. It did stray from Roddenberry's ideal that humanity would be above internal conflict or greed where technology allowed everyone to follow their passion and contribute to the greater whole, especially in early TNG. But TNG at that point was already moving away from that, especially when it was airing at the same time as DS9.
What DS9 did was look not at the core Federation which was presented as a paradise where "it's easy to be a saint", but on the frontier of the Federation and having to deal with the parts of the galaxy that wasn't "paradise". In a way, it helped make the earlier more utopian Trek seem believable for [SPOILERS] reasons.
But I don't think this darker turn really is what did Trek in.
Sure, the TNG movies weren't that good, but and Voyager varied from Janeway being Lawful Stupid to either True Neutral to practically Lawful Evil at some points (though justifiably).
Enterprise was also on the hopeful side of things, though it did recognize there was still a darkside. Archer was very much a throwback to the Kirk era optimism. With the exception of the last episode, the 4th season of ENT was superb.
What really killed Star Trek was J.J. Abrams… who also responsible for kicking off the death of Star Wars.
I would disagree that DS9 "broke" Star Trek. It did stray from Roddenberry's ideal that humanity would be above internal conflict or greed where technology allowed everyone to follow their passion and contribute to the greater whole, especially in early TNG. But TNG at that point was already moving away from that, especially when it was airing at the same time as DS9.
What DS9 did was look not at the core Federation which was presented as a paradise where "it's easy to be a saint", but on the frontier of the Federation and having to deal with the parts of the galaxy that wasn't "paradise". In a way, it helped make the earlier more utopian Trek seem believable for [SPOILERS] reasons.
But I don't think this darker turn really is what did Trek in.
Sure, the TNG movies weren't that good, but and Voyager varied from Janeway being Lawful Stupid to either True Neutral to practically Lawful Evil at some points (though justifiably).
Enterprise was also on the hopeful side of things, though it did recognize there was still a darkside. Archer was very much a throwback to the Kirk era optimism. With the exception of the last episode, the 4th season of ENT was superb.
What really killed Star Trek was J.J. Abrams… who also responsible for kicking off the death of Star Wars.
@BowsacNoodle @sj_zero
>the Texan (Trip?) was an obvious poke at George W Bush, but he was the most realistic character on the show.
He was from Florida. The NX-01 was clearly, then, fueled by crystal meth… erm, I mean "dilithium crystals".
>the Texan (Trip?) was an obvious poke at George W Bush, but he was the most realistic character on the show.
He was from Florida. The NX-01 was clearly, then, fueled by crystal meth… erm, I mean "dilithium crystals".
@Iffine @sj_zero
>DS9 is only part of the reason we have shitty trek now anyways, and that's only because of the fact it's being viewed by retards who don't understand or care for trek and just want to make star wars.
I think Trek died when they cancelled a 5th season of Enterprise after Manny Cotto saved the series in the 4th season, and instead handed it over to J.J. Abrams to make a stupid and shitty movie and an unoriginal sequel (like he did with Star Wars).
>DS9 is only part of the reason we have shitty trek now anyways, and that's only because of the fact it's being viewed by retards who don't understand or care for trek and just want to make star wars.
I think Trek died when they cancelled a 5th season of Enterprise after Manny Cotto saved the series in the 4th season, and instead handed it over to J.J. Abrams to make a stupid and shitty movie and an unoriginal sequel (like he did with Star Wars).
@Ronnie21093 @Iffine @sj_zero
>As an Old Trek fan,
I remember when TOS was the "Old Trek" and TNG was the new one that older fans started out hating.
The Kirk vs. Picard thing was a very real thing and not just a meme.
>As an Old Trek fan,
I remember when TOS was the "Old Trek" and TNG was the new one that older fans started out hating.
The Kirk vs. Picard thing was a very real thing and not just a meme.
@Rudolf_von_Goldenbaum @sj_zero
Ironically, Voyager is the reason whey both Obama and Trump were elected President.
Ironically, Voyager is the reason whey both Obama and Trump were elected President.
@LoliHat @sj_zero Abrams definitely was the start of the bullshit, but it's entirely possible to just ignore the 3 reboot films that were bad. The real kick in the dick was the fact that CBS/Paramount looked at those films and gave Alex Kurtzman full executive control over this series he did not care about at all. Hell Kurtzman only got onto the movie writing teams because he got along with Abrams. He only took the Star Trek control deal because it meant he'd be paid insane amounts of money as the face of all of Star Trek for the foreseeable future. Had Kurtzman not been brought in Trek would probably be suffering just a bit less, or at least not have any new content made.
@sj_zero "Well, if you don't need money, then you certainly don't need mine!"
I didn't see too much of nu-trek, but my mom who loves trek had me watch the short treks one day when I was visiting her.
There was one episode where the ship's AI becomes super advanced and I remember that being a decent story, but one I particularly disliked was about one crew member's origin story, and the final thing was basically "cast off religion and you can go on a cool star trek adventure because religion is stupid and regressive and wrong"
That was one of the things that helped inform the story of Future Sepsis, because realizing how outdated and cliche such a storyline is in science fiction I chose a different path.
There was one episode where the ship's AI becomes super advanced and I remember that being a decent story, but one I particularly disliked was about one crew member's origin story, and the final thing was basically "cast off religion and you can go on a cool star trek adventure because religion is stupid and regressive and wrong"
That was one of the things that helped inform the story of Future Sepsis, because realizing how outdated and cliche such a storyline is in science fiction I chose a different path.
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@sj_zero @Iffine @Ronnie21093
TBF, religion in a lot of Sci-Fi tends to just not exist or be talked about, or be cast as something people believed in the past.
Even DS9 got stupid over it. The Prophets, the gods of the Bajorans, *literally* existed and indeed had godlike powers, yet the Federation at best ignored and them and at worst just considered them to be unimportant "wormhole aliens".
And interesting counterpoint to that was Babylon 5. Sure it had aliens who were religious, but it also showed that religion thrived on Earth and continued to be important. Ironic, since the show creator was openly an atheist.
TBF, religion in a lot of Sci-Fi tends to just not exist or be talked about, or be cast as something people believed in the past.
Even DS9 got stupid over it. The Prophets, the gods of the Bajorans, *literally* existed and indeed had godlike powers, yet the Federation at best ignored and them and at worst just considered them to be unimportant "wormhole aliens".
And interesting counterpoint to that was Babylon 5. Sure it had aliens who were religious, but it also showed that religion thrived on Earth and continued to be important. Ironic, since the show creator was openly an atheist.
It was the weird fish guy (Maybe the navigator on Discovery?). The story was like "Oh, our religion says space is scary and bad" and the climax of the story was the fish guy renouncing his religion so he could go become the fish guy on the discovery.
@sj_zero @Iffine @Ronnie21093
"Discovery" is the one where they choose a failed Georgia Gubernatorial candidate to play the President of Earth.
"Discovery" is the one where they choose a failed Georgia Gubernatorial candidate to play the President of Earth.
@sj_zero @Iffine @Ronnie21093 Space in Star Trek is scary and noone should ever want to risk the alien plagues, wars, etc
@Zettour @sj_zero @Ronnie21093 Consider the following: it is only the federation that ever experiences the sheer scale of issues that would make it not worth it.
"Lieutenant, we found Risa, why would we need to find another planet after that? Except of course for Barclay, who got kicked off for reasons we're not going to discuss ever again."
@Ronnie21093 @Iffine @sj_zero
>Lemme guess, they constantly portray her as the good woman who can never do any wrong and deserves all the praise.
IIRC, she only had a short cameo, but she was playing the President of Earth and thus leader of all humans.
And she was a real life candidate for the Governorship of Georgia who lost in 2018 and 2022.
>Lemme guess, they constantly portray her as the good woman who can never do any wrong and deserves all the praise.
IIRC, she only had a short cameo, but she was playing the President of Earth and thus leader of all humans.
And she was a real life candidate for the Governorship of Georgia who lost in 2018 and 2022.
@Ronnie21093 @sj_zero @Iffine @Zettour
>I want to penetrate the unknown
To boldy cum where no man has cum before.
>I want to penetrate the unknown
To boldy cum where no man has cum before.